UpTime: Bodo Kottwitz on Tissue Markets Today

Still Looking for Balance:

Bodo Kottwitz on Tissue Markets Today

As a tissue industry consultant, Bodo Kottwitz is more than just the CEO of BKay Tissue Advice; he's something of an industry rock star. Bodo has a long career in pulp and paper and frequently speaks about the tissue industry and its markets at conferences and events around the globe.

In this episode of UpTime, co-hosts Mark Rushton and Jan Bottiglieri chat with Bodo about how he sees the modern tissue industry—including supply chain challenges, energy costs, and true sustainability. When it comes to tissue markets, "uncertainty is more or less the headline all over the world," Bodo tells us. Stick around for the UpTime Lightning Round, when Bodo tells us his biggest challenge—and his biggest regret—in his industry journey. Thanks for listening!

Click to watch the "Emma" Sofidel toilet tissue ad mentioned in our chat.

Learn how to grow your career by becoming involved with TAPPI's Tissue Division.

Access more resources through the TAPPI OnDemand platform:

• Bodo's Fall/Winter 2025 Tissue360° feature, Uncertainty Dominates Tissue Markets
• Mark Rushton's Fall/Winter 2025 Tissue 360° interview with Luigi Lazzareschi, Sofidel
• View the Tissue360° archive, including the Spring/Summer 2026 issue.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

The pulp, paper, tissue and packaging industries are always growing, changing, and surprising us every day with something new.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

And what drives that dynamic growth? Our industry's people. Hi, I'm Jan Bodellari, editor of Paper 360.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

And I'm Mark Rushton, editor of Tissue 360. Welcome to Uptime, a paper and packaging podcast. Each month we will connect our readers and listeners with some of the best stories and articles from Tappy publications.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

A dose of positivity to fuel your workday. That's Uptime. Let's get started. Mark, I'm really excited about our conversation today. You put us in touch with Bodo. What are you most excited about learning today in our conversation?

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Yeah, so I've seen Bodo on a number of occasions strutting his stuff on stages around the world. It's uh Miami Tissue World and Dusseldorf Tissue World. And we're in fact going to invite Bodo shortly to Tapicon. And Bodo's really um well ensconced in the area of technology of tissue. And uh, you know, there's a lot happening in Europe, so it's gonna be really good to hear from from him from that point of view, but also from the market in general, uh, you know, the US and global markets. Bodo really knows this stuff. So I'm I'm really excited about this.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

All right, we have a tissue rock star coming on board for this episode of Uptime, a paper and packaging podcast. And now I'd like to introduce our guest, Bodo Kottwitz. He's instructed us to call him only Bodo. That's how he uh is known in the industry. So, Bodo, welcome. You are with BK Tissue. We're so happy to have you here on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Thanks a lot, Jen. Um, so so I'm the rock star. I've never been introduced like that. So that's great. I'm really motivated.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Terrific. Well, let's dive right in. Um, Bodo, tell us a little about yourself and your time in the tissue industry.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

After studying puppet paper technology in in Germany, I started working in uh in a European tissue and hygiene company. Um so after several years, I I uh and and uh and more experience as a product champion in the additive industry for manufacturing and converting, a bit of RD, a little bit of this and that. And uh I started as a consultant uh in the uh management consulting business for for and paper. That time for Yakuperi. Uh this is now Afri. And uh after several years, I made myself independent. I wanted to focus on everything where I've got a better gut feeling with uh that's tissue and a bit of hygiene. And that's where I ended. Uh thought I might uh go back to the industry, but but I really enjoy uh trying to support uh tissue companies and everything related round about the tissue industry.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Excellent. That's an exciting journey.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, it is, it is, and uh and it always brings me to to totally different companies where uh whether whether it's um member of the board of directors of uh of an LEG and tissue company in Scandinavia, or uh advisor to the uh United Nations and stepped into a pulp and uh and and tissue company and in uh in Latin America, or whether I'm I'm doing some sort of due diligence in China. So all in all, uh very international and very totally different worlds um from time to time and from occasion to occasion. And uh as Mark mentioned, uh I'm lazy and acquiring. Uh so that's why I'm uh hitting the stage and a tissue world from from time to time uh to show my face and perhaps engage in in some some interesting discussions.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Excellent. So Rockstar indeed, Bodo. Your world tours, China, Brazil, all these questions. Um so I I know that you and I in our conversation before, you're quite knowledgeable about the market. So could you tell us about the US tissue market in particular um and its challenges and opportunities currently?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah. After a couple of turbulent years uh around the pandemic, when uh when the uh when the consumer market uh skyrocketed and uh and the the away from home market collapsed. So now it's uh it should be a little bit back in into the normal stage of of uh of a solid uh growth of uh of a saturated market, uh the the US market is um so it should be in the in the region of one, one and a half, uh up to two percent growth per year. Uh but of course it's it's uh the the reality is a little bit different. Even though there is constant and and light growth, um we see that there is growth in consumer only in uh in two segments. So so it's uh it's the uh ultra premium, meaning TAD, and uh what uh what is really uh driven by uh by the inflationary cost systems, the uh the lowered loyalty for of end consumers for for branded products, so all that sort of the store brand, private label, retailer label issue. And uh that's where we see the the growth and of course the the investments as well. Um at the moment we we see uh quite a few investments in uh in machines, but 99% of those machines are either dedicated to to ultra-premium consumer or the private label. Sorry, I I forgot a little bit uh addressing the uh the uh the away from home clientele as well. And there it's it's uh it's of course a lot uh dependent on on that return to office, there that RTO uh problem uh problem with uh that Amazon, for instance, forces their employees back to to office. But uh but it it depends a little bit on on uh on that uh equilibrium, where whether the the people are going back three days or or even four days back to to office per week. And a little bit on that tariff situation in the US uh and the um and the wages uh the households have to spend as leisure as going out. Um so in principle, um away from home should be back to uh to solid ground, but uh it isn't really. So the it's it's a tough market. Uh but on the other hand, when uh when you hear the uh the uh company results at the moment, they are quite good, they're they're quite strong. And that's a result of uh the currently relatively moderate or low fiber price. Meaning um it came from from a high uh fiber price, uh the the end product prices were increased, and now the fiber price is going down, fiber costs, and uh and the uh tissue companies can still elaborate a reasonable price and uh and they're profitable. But this might change next year.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

So there's a a little bit of uncertainty in the US market. Do you see that in the global market overall? Are are they similar?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Absolutely. So so that uh that uncertainty of of uh of one or the other uh top politician in uh in Washington, DC is is uh has has caused some some waves internationally. Uh absolutely. And and uh and that uncertainty is is more or less the headline uh all over the world. And um the instability of of uh the political systems, uh you can you can see all the the disputes of of uh of the the ultra-left or or uh or right coming in into force, the free expense of households they they have to spend are tightening. So in Europe, it's uh it's more or less a flat market, um with very, very rare exceptions. Um Asia is still a hotspot. And uh and especially I would say uh if if you look at at the at the recent investments and and uh and the next machines coming up in Indonesia and Vietnam. So these are certainly hotspots. China back to relatively normal. So uh we'll see perhaps uh two million uh two million tons of of new capacity coming on uh in China. Uh and uh but with all those heavy investments in in uh in Indonesia and and uh and Vietnam, uh we might wonder where all that tissue capacity will uh will be penetrated to.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, switching um subjects here, we're gonna um just to touch on sustainability for a minute. We've seen companies such as Sofidel have a really big push on their sustainability efforts, um, and other companies as well, particularly in Europe. Um, so Bona, what is the importance of sustainability factors um and you know how do they influence um the market?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

All around the world, uh it's fully different. In uh in a couple of of uh of lower capital consumption areas, sustainability might be okay, reasonable, but uh but if you translate it, it it means uh label pulp at the best. Um and uh and so a little bit of of FSC and and PFC pulps and and uh and that's it. But but of course for uh for the more mature uh markets and and uh and industrial markets like uh Europe and and uh and the Americas, uh this means quite a lot. Uh driven, however, by uh retailers, big away from home uh clients and partly indirect the um the consumers as well. But I would say the the main driving force is is uh is certainly the the retail segment and uh the large away from home clients, meaning they they uh and that's not restricted to to labeled uh and certified uh fiber, uh, but also carbon footprint um packaging uh that is uh non-plastic or at least recycled plastic. Um further uh further downstream the uh transportation waste, whether it's a regional project or uh or regionally sourced fiber. Uh so this is uh certainly a good chance to differentiate uh for for the small ones even to stand out a little bit and and for for the big ones to uh to uh be able to uh supply sustainably um make them principle and and uh and uh be there in the for the industry.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Yeah. So you say there's a lot of pressure for sustainability from retail, there's some from consumer markets. Do you think there's pressure for sustainability within the industry? As it's just been a great way uh in America we find uh sustainability profiles attract those younger workers, attract the best um you know new people into the industry as a sustainable industry. Do you find that in Europe as well?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

It would be beautiful if it would be that like that. I think the the uh the the aim is certainly there of the industry, but uh but uh I think the the tissue industry is suffering from from the lack of expertise. Absolutely. And uh and uh the little bits and pieces and and uh and and good motivated uh young people are uh are scarce, uh, but of course highly welcomed by the companies.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Yeah. Well that's why we need your expertise traveling around the world. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Absolutely. Um but but I'm not quite sure where whether I would be able to attract a lot of of uh of new uh of new people coming to to the uh uh to to the industry. It was good in uh in uh along COVID when uh when uh tissue became sort of of uh of a sexy business to to be it. Right? Where it was so scarce, where where the where the shelves were were empty and and uh and uh yeah we we had a beautiful area of of uh of uh a European analysis uh claiming uh what's missing in the shelves in in Europe and uh and in Germany it was uh it was flour, it was toilet paper, uh it was rice and uh and some some other uh stuff. In uh in Italy, it was reg wine condos and uh potato chips and and so on, and and uh so it tells a bit about the culture of every individual country.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

That really does. And it was great PR for the tissue industry, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

I absolutely agree. But tissue is always a staple, no matter what your lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

And we certainly need those, uh probably not the COVID times again, but uh, but at least those uh funny things, funny act uh ads or or something that that stimulates a little bit, uh people coming into uh in an industry where where it's partly shift work and uh and partly uh where where the the the machines run 24-7, this is of course not a sexy occupation.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Yeah, very well. It's an issue.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah, yeah. So um changing direction just slightly, but but maybe still sort of linking there, is um the most impressive technology now in the area. Um what do you think? I mean, is AI coming in? Is digitization making an impact? Are they managing data and things like that, producers? What's the uptake like?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, uh I can I can answer uh twofold. Uh one thing is uh what is impressive to tissue? Uh we have to understand we're we're in in an it's a commodity product, and uh we have to be aware. It's uh this is our yeah, I I uh introduced myself as as being an an expert of uh we're within the tissue industry, but uh but uh at the end of the day we're we are dealing with a commodity and uh and the end user doesn't really appreciate that uh uh as well as as cosmetics or fashion or or something else. So what at the moment impresses me technology-wise a lot is first of all, uh a fully electric tissue machine that can be switched uh between gas, electricity, uh other uh energy means by uh uh by availability, by sustainability, and by cost. Uh so uh I've seen uh sort of those machines uh in in operation in uh in Portugal. Uh so this really impresses me. Uh if you switch that to a logic uh that uh that they can choose automatically by by those means and and uh and adapt to it, that's why I see a lot of of uh of chances with uh together with with artificial intelligence controlling it. Uh but of course um when when I when I talk to to Velmet, for instance, uh the the heat pump technology is is uh is offering a lot of potential. And what what I uh what comes slightly but surely to to the industry are uh energy storages. Energy systems, uh this really impresses me, and that that will be more and more important uh to buy in uh energy when when it's cheap and release it when it's expensive.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Oh, that's fascinating. Energy is such a huge cost in papermaking.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Absolutely. That would really give some for you, Jen, but uh but uh so of course the the uh the the west coast in uh of the US is is a bit different from from uh from the east coast, but uh but anyway, in in uh when when you talk to to uh to European uh to an Italian person to to somebody in in uh in the Slovak Republic, uh US is a beautiful world, it's it's perfect world, it's paradise in in terms of of uh of energy costs. But um but for for Europe uh the this really means a big, big cost uh component. And uh and uh at some stage perhaps uh when when it's no longer drill, drill, drill in in the US, it it uh it might become a significant cost factor uh for for uh for for the US as well. And uh this makes it a very interesting uh technology.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, and I love how these technologies tie right back into our questions of sustainability, really.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Absolutely, absolutely. And uh of course uh that sustainability issue is is uh is pushing those uh those technologies to to the attention. But uh yeah, this really impresses me. And and uh I've I love to see them more often in in the industry just lately. I I uh I read about uh an article from uh from Weipa, a German company uh present in the tissue business that uh wants to to invest as the first company in in uh in Europe into energy storage uh for that French facility.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Mark, any follow-ups that you'd like to ask Bodo?

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Um I maybe, I mean, one of the companies that really sticks out. I mentioned it a bit earlier, was Soffidel. Can you just give us a little bit of um uh an overview of why they've been so dynamic in the US?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yeah. Um, first of all, Sophie Dell is a beautiful example of of uh of the opportunities you you have that you still have in in the US. You you asked me about the prospects and uh and the the the the market earlier on, and uh and I said, okay, they're very distinct. But um Sophie Dell saw the chances, saw the opportunities, and grabbed it. Um it was risky, it was risky uh investing all those uh billions of of dollars by acquisition, by organic uh growth, and uh and the investments in in the US are are uh are uh more and more uh capital intense. And uh and that that makes it more and more likely to to well to switch a little bit more towards uh MA in uh in that geographic area. Uh but um Sophie Dell did it both. Uh so they grew organically by highly productive uh mills in uh in Ohio, for instance, uh where they have uh productivity levels there that are triple uh the the the level of of uh of the average other tissue mill. Well you see uh automated uh warehouses, uh AGVs, uh delivery direct into truck. Uh you you see uh well automated uh lines both in in manufacturing and and uh and converting. So uh this is certainly something uh that could be an example or something as as a good manufacturing practice for uh quite a lot of of uh of aged assets in in uh in the US. Excellent. There's a lot of topics we covered there. I really really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Great talking to you about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

But of course, did did I answer all uh what you wanted to hear from from Sofidel? Sofidel, of course, they they're they're active in in the areas that that are grown at the moment. And perhaps uh Sophie Del pushed it themselves. Uh so uh though that private label uh share in in uh in the US that that recently increased uh from from perhaps uh the early 30s to the latest, uh 30% of of uh of the uh of consumer segment and uh and Uh with the latest uh investments of of Sophie Dell more towards the West. They they're one of the first companies that uh that can make the uh the company wide contracts uh by uh reasonable logistics and sustainable because when when you look at at uh at what they what they recently invested in uh um they have uh old uh ocean plastic uh refills and and uh and dispenser things they they have uh products for for their paper nets, so they're their way from homes. Uh sort to to uh to to clean clogging or to prevent clogging by uh by innovative uh wet strength technology. So so there is quite uh quite a lot of of uh of things uh that uh response to to market needs. Uh yeah the others uh are still uh open to respond, perhaps. Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Excellent point. And listeners can learn more about Sapphodel, Mark. You did a great interview with uh Luigi Lazaruski, which listeners can find in both tissue 360 and in paper 360.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Absolutely. You can also it as well. And you can also find uh um an interview with Bodo that we did in uh in Tissue 360 as well, the latest issue, the last issue.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Excellent. That's excellent. Gentlemen, are we ready for our lightning round? We're gonna throw some quick questions at you, Bodo.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Oh, oh, oh quick answer.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Okay, uh lightning round, just your quick answer to what has been the biggest change you have seen in the tissue industry during your time, Bodo.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Well, uh, I would say the the speed of development in China, both market-wise, per capita consumption wise and technology-wise. Uh you can see now uh several TADs under and TAD machines not only produced uh in uh from from the renowned Western uh areas and uh but from uh a handful of of uh of Chinese equipment suppliers. It's uh it's dramatic the speed of of learning, and we have to uh the the Western world really has to to watch out uh that uh that we don't end up uh similar to the European car manufacturers.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Wow, excellent. And I have one for you. What is your biggest regret and your biggest challenge in your industry journey so far?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Um acquisition. Then I would say perhaps it's um I could have contributed a little bit more in associations and and mattering products. So uh I'm now aging a bit and uh I feel uh that um that that I'm uh going straight towards the 60. So so uh I would like to to pass on my experience perhaps in in uh in in associations a bit more. And uh and I should have perhaps done that a little bit earlier already.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Well, I love that that answer being a representative of Tappy. And we hope you'll uh we we hope you'll be a part of Tappy. And uh, you know, our tissue division is doing a lot of great work. Um and perhaps we'll see you at TappyCon.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, would be nice. So so uh I'm I'm uh I was a little bit uh I don't need to to take over Bruce. So so um we'll we'll I'll join with with Bruce Janda, uh who's who's uh active at uh at Tadby, for instance, and and uh and we'll we'll take care together with with Agnes uh for the program in in Miami later uh next year. But um yeah, I'm open. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Terrific. And one more thing, Bodo, what is the one thing that you wish everyone knew about the tissue industry?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Perhaps some more fun facts. Uh so so trying to to revive a little bit uh the the COVID uh situation where where where there was uh cartoons about uh paying in in your bar with with uh with a couple of sheets of of uh of toilet paper. And yeah, yeah. So so that that that could attract new talents that uh that that puts us a little bit more in the in the spotlight again. So so some some fun facts about uh folders in in uh in in Europe versus crawlers or scramblers in in uh in the US. So so something like that, perhaps.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Yeah. Oh wow, that's terrific. Just positioning the tissue industry as such a vital industry again, where people really noticed that during COVID.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Absolutely. We might we might need that uh because otherwise we we all have to to push artificial intelligence and digitalization to to the to the utmost and and uh love to see us being relevant anymore.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

There is no artificial intelligence that can take the place of toilet paper boda. Uh no, no.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

That's nice. And and uh and that closes the the loop. Uh look at at uh that beautiful ad of Sophie Dell in uh in the UK, where uh where a guy in uh in in France, a really an IT-driven uh guy, goes to the toilet and and uh and legs of of toilet tissue and and uh and then uh asks and shelves for for the uh for for his kids to uh to take our care of of additional toilet paper. And uh and uh the son simply uh says, okay, uh here is your mobile phone. Uh try to solve your problem with it.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

We'll have to find that ad and put a link on the landing page, Mark, for the people absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Well, Bodo, it's been so much fun getting to know you and learning more about the tissue markets and um just your journey in the tissue industry.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

It's been brilliant, Bodo. It it was it was good fun talking to you and uh and I really appreciate that. And uh yeah, um I'm always welcome. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Okay, if you have questions, uh our rock star will do an encore.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

We are so glad you could join us for this episode of Uptime. You can learn more about Tappy publications at Tappy.org. I know you'll find something that's perfect for your career growth.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Please subscribe to the podcast channel and share this episode with your industry colleagues and friends because everyone could use a little more uptime. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Hi, I'm Lawton Roberts, president and CEO of Tappy, the pulp paper, packaging, tissue, and converting industry's trusted resource for the publications, training standards, and networking that are so vital to our industry's growth. Tappy conferences are an excellent way to build both your knowledge and those lifelong relationships that are so critical to your career. When you come to our live events, please stop me and introduce yourself. I would love to hear your story. In the meantime, check out Tappy.org for more. Thank you for listening.