Better Together: 2025 TAPPICon Live! - Episode 2

We're excited to bring listeners our second of two episodes recorded at TAPPICon 2025 in Minneapolis, MN, May 4 - 7.

TAPPICon 2025 was a huge success, with strong attendance and a revised multi-track program that let attendees plan exactly the experience they needed. As always, there was a high level of learning and engagement, people meeting new friends and solving problems together.

To try to capture some of that energy, I set up my podcast table right off the exhibit floor and talked to folks from throughout the industry. Our three guests for this episode include:

Priya Venkat—Co-founder and COO of Haber: "There is so much pressure in terms of costs, maintaining a workforce, achieving net zero—the only way our industry can get there is by leveraging AI."

Rich Ermlick—Principal at Boring Excellence: "If you find yourself doing the same improvement projects every three to five years, you're not improving. That indicates there is not an underlying system."

Curtis Stone—Application engineer, Pulp & Paper, at Schaeffler Group:  "Bearings in a paper machine are one of the most highly engineered pieces of equipment... there is no one silver bullet."

Thanks to our three guests for sharing their perspectives with Better Together listeners. Be sure to check out our first TAPPICon 2025 Episode as well, where we meet three more of our TAPPICon attendees.

I hope we were able to capture some of the excitement of a live event – but to really get it, you need to be there in person. So if you were not able to make it to Minneapolis this year, we hope to see you in Atlanta for TAPPICon 2026 – put it on your calendars, April 22 – 26, 2026.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to Better Together. I'm Jan Bodali, editorial director of Paper360, and I'm so glad you're here for the second of two special episodes recorded at Tapicon 2025 in Minneapolis. Tapicon 2025 was a huge success with strong attendance and a revised multitrack program that let attendees plan exactly the experience they needed. As always, there was a high level of learning and engagement with people meeting new friends and solving problems together. To try to capture some of that energy, I set up my podcast table right off the exhibit floor and talked to folks from throughout the industry. We've assembled three of those short interviews for today's podcast. Our guests include Priya Venkat, co-founder and COO of Haber, Rich Ermlich, principal at Boring Excellence, and Curtis Stone, application engineer pulp and paper, at Schaeffler Group USA. I can't wait to share them with you. Let's go. And we're back at the podcast booth. I'm with Pre Eventcat. She's one of the founders of Haber. They're located in Illinois. And you were telling me you provide AI for the pulp and paper industry.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Yeah, that's right. So we have focused on the pulp and paper industry. So we have built our product of we are about an eight-year-old company. So our product focuses on the process side of uh pulp and paper. So starting from pulping to papermaking to power plants and water treatment. Yeah. So what we do is our product is called Mount Fuji. It's a software as a service product. It can sit on any software or any database that's available in the paper mill or even if it's manual records that are available. So it securely connects to let's say a DCS, PLC, historian. It reads into all the data. And what our product does is it cleans the data. So then it starts identifying what are the critical tags that are relevant to any application. Let's say if it's pulping, okay, what are the critical parameters for brightness? Or what is it that we need to consider to maintain brightness and bulk at the same time? Right? And if there are any tags that are missing, let us say, for example, a temperature sensor was maybe under maintenance for some time, so you're not receiving that information on a real-time basis. We have a model that kind of substitutes, let's say, with the moving average. Okay. So you can sort of fill in some of those blanks. Fill in some of those blanks. And uh our product is also almost like 60% kind of standardized because each mill is like a human being. Very unique. Very much so. Very unique. So what happens is we take this a model which is already kind of trained 60%, then we feed with uh feed in with the information of this particular mill or production line. So it kind of understands, it learns over a period of time. Okay. And then as a step one is to gain the confidence of the operator. So we prescribe what should be done. Uh so if the operator agrees to it, they can go and make those changes or they can continue to do what they are doing. Because think about the life of an operator. He's looking at so many parameters on a daily basis, continuously, very tiring. And if AI can enable them, right? So they are just focused on a few things which makes their work very interesting. Otherwise, they are like really focused on a lot of things. So, what we have done is AI kind of takes care of all of this. And once the operator is convinced, then we let them do a closed loop control. So they don't need to do anything, but they do get alerts of events and stuff like that. They can zoom into root cause analysis. So, in a nutshell, that's what we do. Yeah, so it's almost like the operator is training the AI to be its little assistant.

SPEAKER_05 4:19

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's what I like that. I think there is so much fear because I've been hearing AI is a buzzword around Tapicon this year and last year. Um, and I think there's a fear. There's this idea that that operator is not important or not intelligent, and that AI can do everything that he does and doesn't, you know, doesn't need the operator to provide any of her input or anything like that. And you're telling me that's not what your what Mount Fuji does.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yeah, so I mean, I would split this into like two parts, right? So if you look at from a paper manufacturer standpoint, the tenure of a operator is shrinking. Like you are continuously training new operators. I think it's probably over five years, I think, is the tenure right now. Um, so there is a challenge that the paper manufacturers are facing today where they have like very limited talent that's available. Yeah, it's a problem. That's a problem. But when you look at it from an operator's perspective, I feel that they are doing a lot more work in terms of staying super alert, keeping an eye on what's happening, why did this paper break happen? Why do we have spotty uh issues on the paper and things like that? But just if we have this AI, I call it as an AI operator. Okay? This AI operator assists the human operator and tells them, hey, you know, you don't need to watch continuously everything that is going on, but these are some of the things because it's impossible from the pulping section till the poor print to keep track of all the parameters. So, in my view, the operators get significant support, but operator still has a control in terms of what to do. Maybe if they are introducing a new grade. Now AI doesn't know that, hey, this is new information. I don't know. I'm gonna rely on what the human operator is gonna tell me.

SPEAKER_05 6:17

Yeah, so that's really interesting. I like that. Um and you can work on several different parts of the mill, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Absolutely, absolutely. Everything from pulping, bleaching, cooking, washing, everything, right? Like on the paper machine, stock preparation. We have done it in most parts of the paper mill. Uh-huh. We also have in other industries, but oh, okay. But we are very rich with process experts on our team. So we this AI model that I'm talking about is built very, very efficiently. Uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:55

I love that. So you're the founder of the company. Um, and what sort of gave you that drive?

SPEAKER_04 7:02

Oh, okay. So uh in one of the companies that I happened to visit a lot of industries, and it was a steel-making company, then I visited paper mills, and I just felt that technology is kind of not leveraged to the extent it should be. And then we said, okay, why don't we start something that's gonna enable, but our main focus was more on impact in terms of hey, how do I save water, how do I save energy? But that kind of was not what was um, you know, anticipated uh by the customers, but they were really wanted to improve their yield, manage their costs better, and that's how we thought, okay, let's put all our intelligence and get the best of the best people who can be part of HABER. And uh that's that's what we've done so far.

SPEAKER_05 7:51

Well, I love that. That that's usually kind of the path. Someone not only sees the need, because a a lot of people can see a need, but someone has to be able to say, and I think I can do something about it.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

It's a lot of uprelia, it's it's it's the barrier is too high, you really have to sacrifice a lot to figure out what really works. Because if things don't work, I mean you can always go and do something else, but at least I have this great satisfaction. We tried it, and the icing is it's working.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Well, that is a great icing. I love that. Um, so this is not your first tapy con. You are a tappi member, correct? That's right. That's right. All right, but so how does Tappy membership help you as a company founder?

SPEAKER_04 8:34

I think to begin with, I think the visibility is great. Okay. And I've been member for three years. This is my third year. Oh, welcome. Um, so you kind of keep yourself updated because you know there are different sessions happening which kind of zoom into a little more on some critical areas that you know we kind of want to focus on. And also it's meeting the rest of the folks in the industry. It's one-to-one roof, it's nice. You get to take them out for dinner, bond a little better. Yeah, I mean, I really look forward to it. And I think uh having it here in Minneapolis, I mean, the city is really beautiful. It is my first time here.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

So really in Minneapolis? You're welcome. Yeah, I think it's been a popular destination for Tapican this year. And this is the first year that Haber has actually had a booth.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

That's correct. This is our first year, and uh we were lucky we got a really good spot. Um our stall or the booth is done really well. Um and I think having a boot kind of accelerates a little bit. You're able to bring in, you know, you can really showcase what you have to offer. And uh I think uh the last three years we have been presenting papers, so I'm grateful that Tappy selects the paper that we are submitting.

SPEAKER_05 9:57

So yeah, that's well, because I mean some people don't know that about TappyCon, is that we get a lot of submissions for papers. Not every paper is accepted. There has to be technical merit and you know, use to the industry, utility. Yeah. Um so congratulations on being able to do that and being selected. Um we're glad to have you here. As as someone who you know saw this need, founded this company, I'm gonna ask you, what do you see ahead for AI in industry, for AI in pulp and paper making specifically? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Um I think it's just gonna be the way things are gonna be in the future. Um, so with a lot of pressure in terms of rising costs, especially in papermaking process, um, tenure of the operator shrinking, then there is a pressure in terms of maintaining sustainability. Like, hey, what is paper industry contributing, right? Net zero, what's going on? So when you consider all of this, I think the only way, in my uh view, that you could get there is leveraging AI. And that's gonna enable the rest of us to do a better job, have a good quality life. You don't need to deal with, like, you know, stuff that the system can take care of you. Like today, at least when we started, AI was not kind of they nobody would believe that, hey, how can a software control dosing of a chemical? Right. We need human experts, right? But today now you know with Chat GPT what is possible, and that's also kind of pushing AI out there. So, you know, for the most part, I think um any marketing material you want to kind of, you can always do a check with Chat GPT, correct things or make it look better. So it's kind of bringing some intelligence to zero, I feel. Uh, but in pulp and paper industry or industries and large, I think it's definitely gonna be a huge, huge differentiator to make them more competitive.

SPEAKER_05 12:07

Wow. Well, that's what every papermaker needs it, right? Every every mill wants that to be to be more competitive. Yeah. Before I let you go though, I want to ask you one thing, and I hope this is okay. But as a woman leader, uh-huh, what would you tell young women who have that sort of entrepreneurial spirit, who see a need and want to fill it? Wow, what what would your advice be?

SPEAKER_04 12:30

I strongly believe in not giving up. Okay, especially as women, we do have a lot of challenges uh throughout our journey, but just having that mindset of I'm not gonna give up, I'm just gonna keep trying, I'm gonna be persistent, I believe things will fall in place. You're gonna get whatever support you need to build yourself up.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

Yeah, I love that. That's great advice. Well, I'm so glad it's worked for you in Haver. Thank you for coming here to Tavicon and what you provide for the industry.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

Hi, and now I'm here with Rich Ermlich. His company is boring excellence. He spent 25 years as an operator in the industry until he found a way to boost his career and add more value to what he was doing in the company he was working for then. Now he's on his own, and this is his first Tapicon. Did I get everything right, Rich?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

Great. Well, welcome. How's your first Tapycon going?

SPEAKER_02 13:35

There's so many smart people here. There's so much open sharing of information, knowledge, of perspectives, of learnings, and it it's just been a blast to walk around and make new. I've got like 50 new friends, which is pretty good for a raging introvert.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

That's great. I love to hear it. Um but it must help that not only are you a presenter here at TapyCon, but you are uh the author of the cover story, uh, the interview we did for the March-April issue of paper 360. Stability is the first step towards process excellence.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

I know you did a wonderful job on the write-up on that.

SPEAKER_05 14:16

Thank you. Thank you, Rich. It was a lot of fun to talk to you. Um we did a Zoom interview. We ended up talking for two hours because Rich has a lot of great stories about how um he's been helping the industry. Um so tell us a little about what you do.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Well, I've recently launched my own thing. I call it boring excellence because it's a focus on getting back to the fundamentals, the basics, the things that aren't necessarily shiny, sexy new things like AI or the new equipment or whatever. It's getting the fundamentals done at a very high level because that's where I believe true excellence across the board comes in. Yeah. It's helping people with that because the focus requires a different kind of mindset, and more often it's the skill of asking the hard questions that are gonna bring awkward moments. It's about kind of poking people in the eye and getting their attention and saying, hey, we really need to look at this at a different in a different way and at a deeper level.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

You know, and you think about your favorite, your favorite Super Bowl team, none of them have ever gotten past blocking and tackling. Right. You learn blocking and tackling the first day you're there and you're still working on it. But what they do is they take blocking and tackling to such a high level, you know, some of those some of those teams, I know um one of them hired sumo wrestlers to come in and help them with their hand placements. So they might move their hands up and down on the opponent's body one or two inches to help with to help with their leveraging.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Another team had hired rugby players to come in because rugby players don't have all that, you know, you have enough padding on an NFL player, you could drop them out of a plane, and they'd be fine. But the rugby player came in, you know, they they know how to tackle without getting hurt. Right. So they're teaching them the basics, but higher and higher and higher levels. Wow. You know, and as kids I remember playing around in the backyard, and we used to come up with the most elaborate sort of, I'll pass to you, you pass to, and it just got these crazy complicated things, and it never ever worked.

SPEAKER_05 16:20

No.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Just pick up the ball and run. That always worked.

SPEAKER_05 16:24

Well, I love that perspective though, and um that sports metaphor is something that I know a lot of folks will also I get that now. I get that now. What are some of those hard questions? You said, you know, you if you went to a client and and tried to help them get started, you might ask some hard questions.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Well, I know you and I and your your co-worker John, we were just talking earlier about AI being a tool for amplifications. You can you can put a tremendous amount of work through it, but if you put the wrong work through it, it's gonna give you a tremendous amount of wrong answers. And you fielded a question yesterday in in the panel about you know, garbage in and garbage out was the outcome. You know, what do you put into these sophisticated tools? That's true of AI, that's true of Six Sigma, that's true of anything. So one of the hard questions might be if you go in and you're looking to find out what sort of metrics, what sort of, you know, keep process indicators or KPIs you're gonna look at, most people are gonna tell you, hey, uh, we this is what the numbers we've always been looking at. And it's either that's just what they're used to from back in the day, or that's just what the system gives you, and that's what's easy to get. I would say, all right, if you're running a converting cellar facility or you're running a mill or whatever, go ask Roy, your supervisor out on the wet end, hey Roy, how do you know you're about to have a really bad afternoon? He's gonna tell you when I see this happen and I see that happen over there, then I know that this other thing is going on, and he's gonna tell you a story.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

And you can measure that. Right. You can find a way to measure that. I guarantee it's not in the system already. Maybe it is, but there's probably something that they're looking at at a gut level. These people that have 30 years of experience who have not the one year of experience repeated 30 times, but the people who have really elevated themselves in the craft where it's become an art and not quite a science, but an art.

SPEAKER_05 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

If you learn how to put numbers on that, it becomes a science. If you have that as a science, you can write it down, you can teach it, you can train to it, and you can audit to it. If you don't take those steps and ask the hard questions and go talk to Roy, and he might give you colorful language and bad stories, and he's gonna redirect you 14 times. But getting those people to to really talk more deeply about what it is that they look at at a gut level, they might not even know because it's automatic.

SPEAKER_05 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Some of those hard conversations, you know, when you get into manufacturing guys, they tend to not hold back too much. True. And they're uh they're not so politically correct all the time. And sometimes they're not even willing to share. But if you can help them understand that, you know, what you're doing is really gonna make their lives easier, make the job safer, and help the next generation to come in and perform at a high level. I mean, most people are willing to help if if they're not feeling threatened, you know.

SPEAKER_05 19:22

Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned make the job safer safer. I think that's such an important thing. It's something the industry is really I see you have a tappy safe, ribbon on your badge, no whining, self-motivated. Oh, that's some good ribbon. That's some good ribbon you've assembled there.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

No whining.

SPEAKER_05 19:41

Um, so tell us about how you know getting that in the article we call it strategic clarity, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:51

So how can getting that kind of strategic clarity have an effect on a mill's safety or you know, on on that kind of issue as well?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Ultimately, that's about finding what is the overarching reason, the goal, the strategy, whatever it is, what is the top-line idea that you want everybody to follow, and how does every department, every individual's actions drive that idea? So you everybody needs to know what direction do I need to pull the rope to go in the right direction. So there are people in earnest, they might be doing activities, taking on projects, launching initiatives that actually move other parts of the business backwards.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

And applying it to safety, you know, there were male there were well-meaning people back in the day trying to drive safety, saying we need fewer accidents, the recordable rate, we need fewer accidents. But what I did when I ended up transitioning from salar hourly to salary is we started focusing on different numbers to get different outcomes. Instead of trying to drive a recordable incident rate, which you know, people can fudge the numbers. That's human nature. What we ended up doing is asking a different question. Right. How many people of yours are reporting unsafe conditions out in the plants? How many people are giving observations? And on second to that is what the percentage of those are being closed by management. How much of those are actually being taken care of? Because I've seen and heard of projects or um initiatives where they say, okay, let's get the feedback from the people, and then great, it just goes into a box somewhere, and yeah. The box has been lost.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

Great feedback. Yeah, now we're done.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Thank you for your feedback. Now go back to work.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Yeah, that's not uh that's not very productive.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Well, what we did was we ended up the lost workday rate, which is a a number that measures the severity, you know, sort of more or less it is an indicator of the severity of what's been good happening in terms of incidents. It went from the medium, the mid forties, low fifties, dropped down. To about eleven and stayed there for seven years.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

And that's incredible. It's probably the thing that I'm most proud of in terms of the impact that I was able to make because a lot of people were benefited.

SPEAKER_05 22:13

Yeah, a lot of people stayed on the job, avoided injuries that could have affected the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

And even the quiet injuries that don't go that don't even become injuries like the repetitive motion. Sure. The the persons who backs hurt, you know, and now we start talking, hey, this table's too low and it makes my back hurt, and now they fix it.

SPEAKER_05 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

That's an injury that would have happened 20 years down the road. That's 20 years of suffering before it finally popped.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Yeah. And to more than one person, right? Oh, that's really interesting. And then, you know, you can see such a benefit.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

And to your folks in the C-suite and the managers, know that safety performance is a leading indicator of business performance. If you want your business to perform at a higher level, nail safety. Not on paper, not in theory. Nail it. Really nail it to where your people feel safe. They can feel it, they do it, they act it, and they're not just complying with your safety programs, but they believe it because it works. You do that consistently for a few years, you will become much more profitable.

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Wow. Well, that's the bottom line, literally the bottom line. That is. So how how can a mill or a plant um or or even a manufacturing facility at one of our suppliers, how might they know that they need that kind of help? What might be some of the indicators that they haven't achieved that strategic clarity that you could help them with?

SPEAKER_02 23:40

If you find yourself doing the same improvement project every three to five years, you're not improving it.

SPEAKER_05 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

And what that indicates to me is that there's not an underlying system that's going to plug in any serious. You know, imagine this. I'm trying to talk with my hands on on audio. But imagine you work on a project, you take an initiative, you improve something, and it gets better. Okay, the line moves up on the chart. Beautiful. We all celebrate, we we post it on party. Yeah. And then we, you know, if it's a financial project, we get to claim wins and we get to claim dollars on the on the project. That's what a lot of Six Sigma and performance excellence folks are about. And that's great. And then we all go back to our day jobs, and what happens in about two weeks?

SPEAKER_05 24:26

It starts slipping back.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

It just slips right back to where it was. And then a few a few years later, somebody says, Hey, this this number's bad again. We need to we need to work on this. So they launch another project.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

And they probably do the same thing and make the same adjustments, but there's not an underlying scaffolding, there's not an underlying framework. And if you have that in place, which I outlined five different points, it's it's not complicated, but there's a lot of nuance that to apply it to individual places. You can make the adjustments, you can improve something, plug that into your framework, and now it does stay. It does stick. And that I think is a game changer because if you're making an improvement, you're going into a place that you've not been before. You're doing things that you have not done before.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

That's scary for a lot of managers. And that means you're gonna make some mistakes. That means you're you're now in leaning into curiosity, you're leaning into things like, what if we tried this? It might not work. But those are the only way you're really.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

What if it does work? Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Like Jeff Bezos talked about, you know, if you um he he talks about swinging through the fences in baseball, but baseball's a truncated outcome where the best you can get is four hits. If you get a grand slam in business, it's like a thousand hits.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

You keep you keep them running around the bases, baby.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

You get all your steps in for the day. But that that's the thing. A lot a lot of these really big stories that we hear about are people that took that chance. Yeah. They don't talk about the failures that happened before them. They don't talk about where it went wrong, but being able to have that framework and being able to take that chance and move it forward. The worst thing that can happen in most cases is you go back to the way you used to do it, and it's locked in because you had a system.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

Yeah. So it's really all about if you have that scaffolding, you can ratchet up.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:18

Right? You you're not just gonna slip back, you're gonna ratchet up and then build a new little framework, ratchet up. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

That's it. That's it exactly.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

That's exactly how complicated it is.

SPEAKER_05 26:32

Well, um, all right, before I let you go, um what would be your one bit of advice really for a mill that's looking at his process um and saying, I think we can do better? A mill leader who's saying, I think we can do better, where would be a good place to start? Well, obviously with a phone call to boring excellence.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Give me a call, let's talk. And even if you don't want to pull me in to hire me, I'm happy to talk to people and just spread this because it's it's important. The US manufacturing base, I don't believe, is as effective as we used to be. We've got more technology, we've got more everything. Efficiencies that we're making are through large capital capital projects. That's expensive.

SPEAKER_05 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

That's really expensive. You know, we claim gains through automation, but all we're doing is cutting headcount.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

Yeah. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

You know, and that's that's kind of a a cheesy way to think about we're getting better just because we're doing the same thing, but we're just replacing people with robots.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

You can also do better. You can improve your quality. So the I would say, you know, it's starting with the clarity of what is it that you want to be. The the strategic clarity piece to talk about in three things, you can think of it like a GPS. It needs to know where you're at. So it gets your satellite position, knows where you're at. Where do you want to be? That's your destination. How do we want it to be? How do we want this department to behave? How do we want the mill to behave? How do we want people to feel when they come in? How do we want people to feel on Sunday night before they have to come in on Monday morning? Right. You know, how do we want our quality to feel? How do we want our customers to think about us when they come through the mill? Just imagine if your next customer audit was something you look forward to. Wow. Just imagine if your next safety inspection would felt more like an affirmation than an interrogation.

SPEAKER_05 28:24

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Just imagine if your people and your leaders could work more on the business and making the business better rather than responding to yesterday's uh dumpster fires, so to speak. And that that's where I would do is get that future vision on what you really want to look at. That's where I would start. Like, where are we at? And where are we now is gonna tell you a gap. Where do we want to be, rather, and then where are we at now? And if I want to be the safest, and I'm not, okay, why am I not there? Let's work on those.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

It's the frame model, it's a framework that I use for all of my continuous improvement, all of it. It happens to be the same framework as Six Sigma people recognize Demaic, to bind, measure, analyze, improve control, or lean, they use the PDCA model, which is but it's really if you just scrape away all the fancy words, all the jargon, it's number one, get really clear on what improvement you want to make, where do you want to go, how do you want to feel in the future. Number two, what are the root causes of why you're not there yet? And that takes some honesty. Number three, you can only go after one, two, or three things at a time. So figure out the top one or two steps that you can take right now. Step four is to take those steps, take the action, move forward. Do it, yeah. Do you yeah, do the stuff. That's what I have on my business card. Do the stuff. And then number five, monitor and audit. You have to measure. Measure number one, are we doing the stuff we said we would do? Number two, are we getting the result we thought we would get? Because if you're not doing this stuff continuously, the people are not bought in, or maybe you're asking them to do something that is making their job harder or less safe.

SPEAKER_05 30:10

But again, it's like ratcheting up because if you get to step five, and the answer is, you know what? No, it didn't have the effect we wanted. You don't have to start back at one, right? You've already you've already okay. Well, where how far back do we have to go before we course correct and get the the results we wanted? Because you still have that strategic clarity of where you're going.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Exactly. You've just got more information.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

And you go back, and then when you finally get to step five, and yes, we're doing the stuff, and yes, we're getting the result, great.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Then there's that last magical step. And to go back to the sports analogy, after the game, the next morning you're watching the tapes. You're asking, what did we do well? What did not go well? And what can we do better next time? And then it becomes a looping cycle where you in your facility, your team, whatever, you're getting better at the art of getting better.

SPEAKER_05 31:04

Oh, wow. I love that. Let's end on that note. Getting better at the art of getting better. Love it. That's what Tappy's about. Rich, thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me. I would encourage everyone to check out uh the interview I did with Rich in the March-April issue. Um, thanks, Rich.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Oh, thank you, Jan. This has been awesome.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

Awesome. And that was our high five.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Rock on.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

And we're back. I'm here with Curtis Stone. He's with Scheffler. He's an applications engineer for pulp and paper.

unknown 31:44

So you'll get to the bigger.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

Thank you for coming on to Better Together, Curtis. Nice to nice to have you.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Thank you for having me, Jim.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, one reason that I asked Scheffler to come back to the podcast is this water bottle that you know. I'm I'm kidding. If you don't know, at a at a show like Tapicon, different exhibitors offer you different swag, and I am in love with my Shuffler water bottle, but that is not the reason we are talking to Curtis today. Curtis, you told me you have a product that you've been talking about a lot at the booth that you guys are pretty excited about.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

Yep. Um, so it's uh universal spherical roller bearings um for pulp and paper applications. Um a number of years ago, um Scheffler, well, it was before actually before Scheffler uh bought FAG, it was still FAG, and um we decided to uh make things a little easier for carrying inventory and the cost of inventory that mills were um needing to carry. And so we came up with a the universal spherical roller designs, the H140 and the T52BW designations.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Okay, I'm sure those mean something more to you than they do.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

So, in a nutshell, basically what it does is it takes about 25 different design variants and makes it two. So basically, yep. So we have an H-140 uh for our straight bore bearings, and for our taper bore bearings, your designation would be T52BW.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Okay, so how do you manage to make one type of bearing work in in place of so many other different types?

SPEAKER_03 33:31

So you just make the bearing have all the features that they once had one or two of. So for instance, you know, um uh common call out for SKF or NSK is a C08 W507. Well, Scheffler said, okay, well, why don't we just make everything that and we can make it a W507 and a W509 to have the increased running accuracy, the high points of maximum eccentricity marked on the bearings, and just make it all in one bearing.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

Wow. So what would the advantages be for that for a papermaker?

SPEAKER_03 34:09

So a huge reduction in inventory. Um, you're gonna have uh more of inventory uh available on hand, um, and that will increase your asset availability because it'll allow you to you know have less bearings on the shelf um in your storeroom. But uh because of that, because they're the universal design, uh you will be able to uh use any one of those instead of having, oh, I need a C08 W507. Well, all I've got is a CO8 W509, so that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_05 34:41

Right. Meanwhile, the bin next to it is like full.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Exactly. Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_05 34:47

That's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Yeah, yeah, it is. And the these designations um we we focus on bearings with diameters uh the outside diameter of greater than 320 millimeters. We do have um smaller uh sizes, uh, but those have come along the requests from customers. So hey, we would let we have a smaller uh calendar role. We need p5 running accuracy to make uh product quality. So we need the we need it in a T52BW um 22238, so something that's a little bit smaller, so we can adapt to that, and we've added those over the years. Um so if there's something that we don't offer in a T52BW or an H140, it is definitely something that we can quote and get the process started.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

Wow. So this is gonna sound like a gotcha question, and I really don't mean it to, but I'm just interested. Is there a danger to have a bearing that's over-engineered or that has too many features?

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Um yes, there yes and no. Um these features I would say uh are within reason. Okay. Um and the funny thing is is that I don't want to say that a lot of the designations that these encompass are obsolete, they're just not uh that well known anymore.

SPEAKER_05 36:15

Oh, so you're talking about solving another problem, really, which is I have an older machine, it's calling for these bearings, I can't get them, or they're expensive, or they're takes eight weeks to get here. But I can use these.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Yep. And an and another good thing about that is and with the bearing the the quality of bearing manufacturers across the board, tier one bearing manufacturers, is that we've gotten so good at at manufacturing bearings over the last 30 years. Again, I don't want to say it makes it obsolete, but you know, there's not the need, we don't have the need for it like we once did.

SPEAKER_05 36:56

Gotcha. What goes into engineering a bearing? Because it's such a it's sort of a an underappreciated part, but it's extremely engineered, like the tolerances need to be kind of perfect, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:09

So you you might not believe this, but I would say that bearings in a paper machine are one of the most highly engineered pieces of equipment.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

I I do believe it.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

So there is a lot that goes into uh designing a bearing. I mean, you've got to think about uh, you know, your raceways and your rolling elements, the the the curvatures between the two. So you look at osculation, you look at uh the profile of the rollers, um, cage design, cage material. Um one thing that uh X-Life uh is one of our features that we offer. It's our uh um it's an optimized um bearing raceway. It's optimized with a grind. Um we have profiled rollers, so we increase our load capacities and increase our lifetime. So it there's I mean, there's not one silver bullet to design a bearing. There's there's many.

SPEAKER_05 38:05

Can you make bearings out of silver bullets though?

SPEAKER_03 38:10

I would say stainless steel is about as close as you're gonna get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:14

Well, I can tell you really know your stuff and you're excited about this product. But you mentioned like how things have changed. So, how has bearing technology changed in the last five, ten, fifteen years since you've been, you know, working?

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Uh we get a lot better at our processes. Um, you know, our our heat treatments, our coatings, things like that, that either go on the rollers um for uh avoiding uh skidding or smearing issues. Um we have coatings that protect against uh electric fluting and electric current leakage. Um, those are ceramic coatings. Um we also have hybrid ceramic deep group, mainly deep groove ball bearings that we use for high-speed applications, the spreader rolls. So, I mean, it there's been a lot, it might not seem like a lot, yeah, but there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes as far as research and making sure that the proper material is being used and applied to the correct application. Yeah. Um there's a lot of study going on um on within Scheffler um about lubrication and better understanding lubrication bearings is you know, is it too much? Is it too little? Is it, you know, can you back it off, you know, half and still be able to run? So there's yeah, I mean there's I learn something every day. Um I love that's that's what keeps about the humble bearing. Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

Well, you seem to be the know-it-all guy on bearings. Okay, I'm just gonna throw some questions at you. Not fair you tell me, but say an average paper mill, I know there is no such thing. How many bearings might there be on the machine?

SPEAKER_03 40:03

On the mach wow, uh depends on how many dryer cans there are, but I mean there could be anywhere from on it, let's say uh you got a tissue machine, so a smaller machine. You might be looking at 300 on a big board machine. You're looking at over a thousand. Wow. Yeah, well over a thousand.

SPEAKER_05 40:23

Wow. So really, I mean the size of the machine, what other factors might affect the type of bearings you use or the amount of bearings you use?

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Um, so what uh what you're producing, what kind of quality uh your customer demands. Um there's it also depends on uh what if you're are you producing your own pulp? Are you importing pulp? So how much auxiliary equipment do you have running to support your machine?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

So you know, do you have a a a woodyard? So it's my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

Yes, it's so there really is never gonna be one answer. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Nope. Well, it's what I learned in paper. Never say always and never say never.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

So, well, tell me a little more about that then. What when you say you what you learned in paper, did you go to paper engineering school or nope.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Actually, I went to uh Oregon State University as a chemical engineer, graduated as a chemical engineer, and decided that I never wanted to do another mass or energy balance again in my life. So I fell back on uh growing up in a fabrication, a machine shop um uh that supported a farm, our farm. And um that's that's what I've always been in love with. And um I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

It does. It does. Well, I'm a big believer in making things. Just you know, just you can talk about things, but when you have the ability to make things, it makes you feel good. It you know, it's it's part of our human desire, I think, to make things. So is that I mean, is that how you feel when you design a bearing for a customer?

SPEAKER_03 42:05

It yes, so I mean, there's a lot of headache that goes into it, trying to glean all that necessary information to make it as you know, as spot on as you can, because you know, obviously as an engineer, we you know, gotta be pretty thorough.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

Well, let me ask you this before I let you go, because clearly you are the guy who knows bearings and improves bearings and wants to help your customers improve through bearing use. Um, what like is there something you can think of that a customer has commented to you that made you feel like, yes, that's what I wanted to achieve?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yes. Yes, um, well, we yeah, we uh recently uh just uh implemented a a test for our our soccer bearing, a self-aligning cylindrical roller bearing and dryer can. And uh, you know, we talked talked about it, talked it up, went through all the motions to um, you know, design everything. And once it got installed and everything came through like it was supposed to do, and they saw the reduction in their vibration so they could read other vibrations that they couldn't read. And when somebody comes up and says, you know what, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

Oh that's huge. Wow, just the simple thank you. I love that. Well, Curtis, thank you so much for talking to me today. I've learned a lot about the importance of the humble bearing. Reminds me of how even one person can make a difference in a company, how even one part can make a difference on a machine.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 43:48

From AI to roller bearings, we covered it all on this episode. I want to thank Priya, Rich, and Curtis for stopping by my podcast table at Tapicon 2025. I hope we were able to capture some of the excitement of a live event. But to really get it, you need to be there in person. So if you were not able to make it to Minneapolis this year, we hope to see you in Atlanta for Tapicon 2026. Mark your calendars. It's April 22nd through 26th in 2026. Serious question. If you've never been to Tapicon, what are you waiting for? Come to Atlanta next April. And if you're lucky, maybe you can even be a guest on Better Together. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Hello everyone, this is Larry Montague, president and CEO of Tappy, the pulp, paper, packaging, tissue, and converter industry's go to resource for news, industry trends, and technical and management information. We hope you enjoy today's Better Together podcast. And remember, there are two types of people in our industry Tappy members and those who should be. Have a great day.