Better Together: Tissue Experts on Dust Mitigation

In this episode, host Jan Bottiglieri speaks with Bud Chase and Alfredo Sarli, members of the TAPPI Tissue Division Dust Mitigation Committee. This growing, active group of professionals meets to discuss a critical issue: managing the risk of tissue mill dust fires. Listeners will learn more about the science behind dust combustion; how vendors and manufacturers are working together to identify new mitigation goals and techniques; the potential risk involved; and what top things our experts feel every tissue mill must do to manage this risk.

Bud Chase is vice president—tissue at EDT (Enzymatic Deinking Technologies), responsible for all tissue enzyme applications. He has spent his entire career in the paper industry, beginning in 1989 with roles in tissue production, paper machine clothing, automation, and chemicals. Chase received a Bachelor of Science degree from University of Wisconsin Stevens Point Pulp & Paper/Chemical Engineering program.

Alfredo Sarli is a mechanical engineer from McGill University with over 30 years’ experience in the paper industry on machinery and process applications ranging from the wet end to the dry end of the paper machine. He is currently an applications specialist for the Air Systems division of Valmet and is based in Montreal, Canada.

To learn more about the Tissue Division or the Dust Mitigation Committee, visit the TAPPI Website.

Read about TAPPISAFE and the new Dust Mitigation course—or any of the more than 170 courses TAPPISAFE offers— at tappisafe.org.

Which Division or Committee is a perfect fit for your career? TAPPI has more than a dozen Technical Divisions targeting specific segments of the industry. Each Division and its corresponding Technical Committees work to share knowledge and provide solutions for the industry through a variety of products, services, and opportunities including publications, events, and online discussions. TAPPI members can join any of our Technical Committees.

 To become a TAPPI member, please join online or contact the Member Connection Center at 1-800-332-8686 (US), 1-800-446-9431 (Canada), or +1-770-446-1400.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Better Together, Paper 360 magazine's podcast series, where I speak with innovative leaders throughout the industries that Tappy serves. I'm Jan Bodilleri, editorial director of Paper360, and I'm glad you're listening in. Today my two guests truly exemplify the name of this podcast, Better Together. I'll be speaking with Bud Chase, Vice President Tissue at EDT, that's Enzymatic Deinking Technologies, which is based near Atlanta, Georgia. And I'll also be speaking with Alfredo Starley, an application specialist for the Air Systems Division of Valmet. He is based in Montreal, Canada. The cool thing is that every couple of months, Bud and Alfredo and a few dozen fellow tissue experts meet as part of the Tappy Tissue Division Dust Mitigation Committee. The work they do together may literally save lives. Dust fires are a common occurrence in tissue mills around the world, and their frequency is on the rise. In today's conversation, we will find out why that is and what the Dust Mitigation Committee is hoping to do about the dangers of dust. Let's get started. Today I welcome Bud Chase and Alfredo Sarley. Guys, can you um identify yourselves with your with your names and titles?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Sure. I guess I'll go first. My name is Bud Chase, I'm vice president of tissue at an enzyme company called EDD, which stands for enzymatic de-inking technology.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

All right. And uh my name is Alfredo Sarley. I'm with uh Valmet, based in Montreal, and I'm an I'm an applications engineer for the Air Systems Group.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Well, that um pretty much explains what we're going to be talking about today. Tissue plus air systems. Um you are both experts in dust mitigation, which is a serious issue in our tissue mills. And we're going to talk about some exciting things you both have been working on. So my first question as a layperson, I usually think of dust as, you know, on my tabletops, and I just take out a little can of pledge and mitigate it that way. Um, but what what is the science behind dust combustion in uh tissue mill? What what is the science there?

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Oh, well, that yeah, and that's a great question because uh that's the uh pretty much the objective of the TAPI committee uh that Bud and I are on, and that's what we're trying to explore. And it's a very fascinating one, and and we enjoy it. And what we've learned so far is that really there are three uh elements that contribute uh to creating a dust fire. And likewise uh there are three uh uh levels of fires or explosions. And so if we go through each one of these, uh it's basically that the first level is is a simple dust fire. Uh-huh. The second level would be uh a little bit more serious situation, would be a what we call a flash fire or the technical term uh deflagration. And the third would be a dust explosion, and that's the most catastrophic.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Oh my gosh. And now again, it sounds like something that would surprise someone who's not in a tissue mill and sees the tremendous amount of dust that the process creates. What causes that sort of explosion just from dust particles in the air?

SPEAKER_03 3:54

The the buildup in those three levels to get to that catastrophic one, luckily that's the the most rare form, uh, of course, but that's the most uh uh dangerous situation with the highest uh uh casualties in terms of the impact on equipment and and so on and and uh downtime. So if we go in order, then the the simple dust fire is something that is very common and luckily not as destructive because it can easily be put out. And what is a dust fire? It's just when you have the right concentration between fuel, an oxidant, and an ignition point. So the fuel is the dust in question that is generated off the machine. The oxidant would be the oxygen in the air, and the ignition point would be any spark uh or intense heat source on the tissue machine that would ignite that that mixture. So anything like uh the the surface of a Yankee hood, if there's a a leak of of air, uh we know that um uh Yankee dryers operate at very high temperatures and their hoods can operate at temperatures as high as 900.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Holy moly!

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah, and that's where the the issue arises 900 Fahrenheit, and we know that as of 450, is it 451?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yes, yeah, that's what Ray Bradberry teaches us.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Right?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Fahrenheit 451, the combustion of paper.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Yes, yes, exactly. So these dust fires occur very uh often, and then uh they can because they're small, they can be put out if they're caught early. If they're not caught early, and then uh they get a chance to spread out, then we get into the second category, which is the defilation, or more commonly a flash fire. So now we've got it's the combination of the dust fire and the pressurized dispersion of that fire.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Oh my goodness, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

That just spreads it out through uh the paper machine or the machine room. And then that's bad.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Literally in a flash, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and that's where it becomes very uh dangerous. Now there's a third level, the one that I mentioned, the the dust explosion. How do we get to that? Well, now we take the deflagration and we enclose it, we confine it in an let's say an enclosed room, and that allows the pressure to build. And at a certain point it reaches a critical point where it it just uh explodes. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Oh, exactly. Yeah, well, this I mean, literally the air is on fire, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Because if the dust is evenly spread and dispersed through the air, then that's how it can flash through uh however, where it does the most damage is where the dust is a little bit more concentrated. Once you have the right concentration of air to dust, just like gas, the the the air to gas, uh air to fuel ratio in the combustion engine of a car, when it's at the right mixture, then it will ignite with a spark. However, once it ignites, then it lights everything else in its way. So it's all the denser accumulations of dust that will cause the bigger fires.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

One of the ways to to maybe think about this is like something we've all done is built campfires. And if you try to light a log on fire, it's pretty difficult to do. You can't hold hold a match to a log all day, it won't light. But hold that same match to a piece of paper that's made out of that log and the paper lights much quicker. Now hold that same match to airborne dust that's been created from that piece of paper and it lights even faster. So it's a function of the surface area of the fuel relative to the oxygen and the spark, right? So in the to in the tissue making process, we have a ton of dust, which ignites pretty easily under the right conditions. So that that leads to Alfredo's sort of trifecta of just a dust fire, a depth region, or an explosion, depending on the the stuff that's around this fuel that's pretty darn flammable.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

So to extend your metaphor, it's like the air is full of little tiny pieces of kindling.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's easier to light that uh when it's in that small form. Uh and so there's a a sweet spot, unfortunately, you can call it that. Because if there's not enough concentration of the fuel in the air, then it won't it won't be as bad. And then when it reaches that concentration, then that's where it lights. And and the opposite is true, is that if there's a a large amount of dust just accumulated, then that uh, like like Bud was saying, that's like you know, uh the analogy uh of the log. So there's a lot of different conditions that we found that come into play. And in doing so, we found that there were like over two dozen types of tests that could be run to figure out am I near one of these dangerous conditions? And we found that could be pretty overwhelming for uh an a male engineer to try to figure out. So we're hoping that through the work of the Dust Mitigation Committee, that we can uh assist uh that person through that process and to better understand it.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Okay. Well, this is something a lot of folks don't know about that Tappy has these working, and you know, it's not just a social group. You know, this has been Tappy's reason for being since its founding is to kind of pull together the industry around some common, uh, some common definitions, some common tests. And we have all these working committees of real professionals who get together and try to figure these problems out, right? So you're both really involved in the dust mitigation committee. And that's what Alfredo was referring to. So can you guys tell me more about the committee? Um, you know, what kind of folks are involved who can get involved? And tell me a little about the work you guys do.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

I guess one of the things that uh I guess led to this was going way, way back in my career where I was actually in one of these fires as a shift worker in a tissue mill and kind of made an impression on me like, you know, this is not a great thing, having flames shooting around here and there and causing damage and melting wire trays. And that was a lot of a lot of trouble from it. So during COVID, I was the Tappy tissue chair uh along with um Suzanne Blanchette. We were co-chairs. And we talked a little bit, and um, I thought it might be a good idea if there was interest to form a committee around this issue of dust and dust fires and and and this sort of thing. And it's really a a a big topic. Um, you know, everybody's got this issue, everybody kind of knows about it, it's sort of been viewed as a necessary evil in our industry. And we thought, well, let's try to take a shot at at putting a committee around this. And um, Alfredo stepped in right from the beginning when we first had this idea and agreed to be the leader of this of this committee. So we started working together and uh looked at recruiting people from the industry and and trying to see who could maybe be the experts that would be on this committee, and it grew rapidly. Uh we we went from basically two members, Alfredo and I, up to probably 40, 45 members in relatively short order. And they were spread across a lot of companies, including both suppliers and and producers.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

So that was sort of a nice mix. And and even then, when when we had a nice committee sort of forming, it was still, I don't know, Alfredo, how you would describe it, but I would say it was a little bit painful to try to sort of scope what this committee would actually do and how we would wade through this big problem. So probably our whole first year was just trying to figure out gosh, do we need working groups? What should these working groups be doing? Um, then do these everything evolves over time. And it's just it's been a challenge to try to keep things moving in in a good direction. Alfredo's just done a marvelous job uh sort of leading that effort and and coordinating meetings and and all this sort of thing. So it's it's really advanced a long way. But if we could somehow fast forward a hundred years and see where this is going to end up, we're probably just in the infancy stage, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Well, I appreciate that, but I uh I'm fortunate to have had the opportunity to uh to be in this group and for you having reached out to me. Uh, I I guess um, you know, we were in the uh Yankee Dryer Safety and Reliability Committee together, and that's where the topic came up and where you had uh suggested forming this group. So it's been it's been a lot of fun uh working uh with all these industry experts uh because it's a great learning experience. And and like Bud was saying, it took us a while to try to figure out what we would do and how we would do it. And it was the timing was perfect because it was um during COVID, as as Bud mentioned, and there was less travel and there was time to uh think through uh the strategy. And uh we we spent pretty much a year trying to figure out and come up with a mission statement, and we ultimately uh figured that we would the point of the group would be to share ideas uh in order to advance uh dust mitigation solutions uh to help the industry. Um we decided that we would focus on the tissue manufacturing industry, because that's where the the main issue is uh more prominently, and that we would provide a platform for industry experts to interact. So once we had that uh firmed up, then we continued uh into developing the working groups and what we would focus on from there.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Well, real talk, guys. You know, Bud said something that I I kind of latched on to, and that is that for a while the industry was sort of using a uh a necessary evil. It's a necessary evil. I think one of the hardest things to overcome, especially in a really traditional industry like ours, is just that mindset. Well, we just need to deal with it. Well, it's just how we've always done it. It's just something that's always happened. Um, so it's not really surprising to me that even when you get these experts together over such a critical problem, it takes a while to overcome that mindset, to organize around this new idea. Like, no, we not only can we do something about it, but we have to do something about it. You know, as safety especially has taken such a central role in our industry, um, you know, in the in the past decade, I think I've just seen so many changes in safety attitudes and what used to be acceptable or, you know, not great, but this is just how we do it. That's not good enough anymore.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Correct. I would add to that that um the sensibility has also changed because of the frequency of fires. And that that I found very interesting, this trend, because it was directly related to the quality of product that was being made. And so there's an interesting trend that as we get better and better paper being produced or tissue, a necessary evil of that is that it generates more dust. And it's typically a good sign that one is on the right track for making softer, higher quality tissue grades, just with that better hand feel, that fluffier texture.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I've actually noticed that just as a consumer, that when I buy the nicer quality, which there are a few things that I like to spend extra money on, but bathroom tissue is one of them. I love, you know, I love the really fancy stuff. I love the really fluffy stuff. So I, you know, I can see how that would be a problem.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yep. Then and and so it was uh because of that trend, then uh we saw more and more fires. And that's what raised the awareness. And and uh from my standpoint and my personal work, I saw an increased demand of for dust mitigation solutions. And uh in my work, uh uh we work in uh providing uh engineered solutions for capturing dust and so on.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And um and it's the government has such a has such a presence within the tissue industry specifically, too. So you're producing a lot of the um advanced machinery that can help manufacturers create that better tissue.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Yes, in a way, yes, it's it's it's it's it's it's uh circular thing, is that you know, we're trying to produce machinery that will uh yield that uh result, however, it generates dust, so it creates the counter uh a reaction to improve the dust collection systems at the same time, remove that dust. And that's how the dust mitigation committee is formed with regards to the subcommittees, where we look at the approach from dust at the source, being generated at the source versus dust that is captured in the machine, the envelope of the uh of the machine itself, versus the third larger element of dust being that escapes that envelope and then enters the larger envelope, which is the machine room itself. And so there are different mitigation solutions depending on where that dust is. And uh Bud is uh leading the the first uh working group, which is capturing dust at the source. I'm working on the second working group, which is capturing dust once that few once we capture that dust, but some of it escapes uh that fugitive dust now is within the machine envelope. And so there are systems that go in and capture that now. And then if we capture most of that, and yet there's still some that escapes that envelope, now we are with within the machine room. And so now there are different uh other uh maintenance-related solutions to capture that dust.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Yeah, I think I think when we're when we were talking about figuring out how to structure an approach to help reduce dust or deal with dust, we kind of reached that fork in the road where we said, okay, we can either make less dust or we can deal effectively with the dust we have. So, you know, if you get dust in your home, I think you said earlier, you can, you know, use some pledge, you can wipe it up. It's a pretty manageable thing on that scale. But when you're in a big factory, a tissue mill, uh, the quantity of dust is just overwhelming. And so if you don't have a uh a good strategy for dealing with the dust you have, you can start to find yourself uh neglecting certain corners of the room, maybe up on the top of the beams, places where people don't walk by every day. There's dust building up in those areas, and those that can present some risk. So dealing with the dust you have is is is an aspect of this for sure. And you could either, you know, vacuum it upright at the source through some sort of a machine builder system that that is designed to do that, or you could effectively move the dust from these problem areas, say on the top of a beam. You could put fans up there that that dislodges it from those beams, and now it falls to the floor where it's more readily cleaned by by some other crew or some other system. And then of course you can go to the source and try to make that dust in the first place, and that gets to how you actually make tissue, and that gets to oodles of different variables, uh, ranging right from the furnish that you use through the chemical additives that you use, the way you crepe it ultimately on the Yankee, or if it's a TAD machine, how you produce it there. So there's really lots and lots of avenues to go down to either make less dust or deal with the dust you have. Um and I think that's the main focus of the committee is to sort of focus in those two general areas.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Well, that's one thing I love about Tappy is that it gives sort of a safe space for suppliers and manufacturers to work together. Um, and maybe even suppliers and manufacturers from all different companies in a non-competitive way. Because with what you're describing, there's really no way for either suppliers or manufacturers to handle the problem on their own.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

I think that's true.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

You know, these different levels that Alfredo was describing and the different source points that you're describing, Bud, I I mean, that's really the whole mill. That's the whole that gets down to everything.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

And there's another aspect as well, I think, that's been a really positive trend in our industry for the last probably decade or so. And that's all the the other side of the industry that deals with fires once the fire starts. So they they detect the fire and they can put the fire out. And that technology is really advanced leaps and bounds. So there's there's some mills that are utilizing that technology where let's say a fire does start, it's almost like blowing out a match. You know, you can do that really easily as long as you jump on it quick.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

That match spreads and out of the fire gets bigger. Boy, it's it's exponentially more difficult to put that fire out. So the detection technologies that are out there today are so much better than they were, you know, 35 years ago when I had my experience in the in the in the mill. We didn't have such So we used our noses and eyes to smell and find fires.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

It's just another example of how technology is helping us, you know, with data, um, interpret the data maybe before our noses can, you know, where the problem spots might be. You know, you you don't can't go around touching your Yankee dryer hood to see if it's hot enough to make a fire. So maybe some of those um data collection technologies can help us there. Is that being used for dust mitigation?

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Alfredo, you would be more expert on this than I am, but uh certainly the machine builders have done a very good job improving the quality of hoods uh over the years. And just a new hood is going to be far better than an old hood because, like any equipment, hoods age and can become problematic as they get older. So part of the industry that Alfredo focuses on and the machine builders in general focused on is exactly that just keeping those hoods designed well so that they have minimal hotspots and contain the heat in the appropriate ways and exhaust heat properly so that it doesn't build up in in uh problematic spots.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

And and and to tie into Jan's uh comment about data, that is also a big focus as well, uh amongst uh uh well everyone across industry now, as we as we see. And uh having those data points now being trended will is certainly uh help in that regard, uh, and not like the situation that uh Bud found himself in, unfortunately. When I I I always find that story fascinating, uh Bud, if you don't mind sharing it, because I think it really I think it speaks to a lot of people that might be listening to this podcast that are in the mill environment. And a pretty dramatic uh situation, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah. So you said you were you were young. Were you it was it an intern position or were you a new hire to the industry when you first had this experience?

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Yeah, I was in my early 20s and had just taken a job, chip supervisor, a permanent job in a in a tissue mill. And um, at that time we were working 12-hour shifts rotating. So we'd start at seven in the morning and work till seven at night, or vice versa. And this happened to be a Versa. So I was coming in at night and starting the shift at seven. And it was very common for us to have what we called little smudge fires. So we would have them, I would say almost daily, where we would smell a little bit of smoke. It was no big deal, easy to put out. And we kind of had a routine where there were certain spots where we would often go to look, and sure enough, that would be where the fire was. And this particular night, the fire was not there, so we could smell the smoke, and the shift before us could smell the smoke, and they were trying to figure out where it was. Time for shift change, and they didn't find it, so they told us that they could smell something and for us to keep looking. So we did that. And um, one of the guys that left forgot his jacket, and he was walking back in the mill. And as he was walking back in the mill, he looked up and uh there were some sparks in a roof exhaust fan. And it turns out the bearing had gone bad on that fan or or the belt hit bail, I forget exactly what it was, but that's where the the fire was. So it was an abnormal spot, and we weren't really seeing it or finding it. But all of a sudden he found it. So it was exactly between the two paper machines over the aisle. And we tried to arc some water up there after we shut the power off to the to the fan to try to put it out. And as soon as that water hit that spot that was burning, fire just I guess deflagrated into the air and it it burst, and this and the dust went into the air, and there was a small little deflagration, not an explosion because it wasn't contained, but then it started running down beams and going down all sorts of places. Goodness. So what was a really small fire became a full-on, full machine room fire that we literally fought all night. And and the next morning, at the end of our 12-hour shift, we were exhausted and and went home. And uh before the night was over, there was 80 or so uh firemen there. They were uh doing everything they could to to put it out. We did get it out. Uh miraculously, nobody got hurt. Uh well thank goodness somebody had a little smoke inhalation, but that was about it. Yeah, um damage to how what was that pretty extensive? I mean, there was there was a lot of damage. We were down, I would say about two weeks from that fire. So there was a lot of melt cable trays and wires needed to be rerun, and there was some damage to the ceiling because it was a wafer ceiling, and and some axes had to be used by the firemen up on the roof to sort of get at that internal space and uh put the fire out. And believe me, there was water everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Oh my goodness. So thank goodness, no human injury or or loss of life, although that has happened in dust fires, right? Um, just a two-week down period is incredibly expensive, plus all that damage that would have to be repaired. And now, as a young guy, first of all, this is your first position in a mill. You're a young guy, you're walking in and the shift leaving says, uh, have a great day at work. By the way, something's on fire and we don't know what. You know, that's not a great way to start your shift. Were you really aware at that time as a young uh professional what could happen with a dust fire like that?

SPEAKER_04 27:24

Certainly not as aware now or then as I am now, and and certainly not as aware then as I was 12 hours after that happened.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

So that was a an intense learning process. Um, had a committee like this been around back then and and sort of a an awareness be raised about about the different levels of fire and and um you know how to attack a fire if you suspect you have one. And and you know, I I think all that could have been quite helpful.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Well, that's a great segue into something I wanted to ask you specifically about something that the dust mitigation committee is working on, and that is an awareness course in conjunction with Tappy Safe. Um, so tell me a little about that. Uh clearly I we can see what prompted you to do it. How is the development of that coming along?

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Oh, very well, actually. We're very happy about it because this was so the Tappy Safe team reached out to us uh to our committee and said, uh, would you be interested in putting together uh an awareness course? And we quickly jumped on it because it was really part of the objective of this committee, the long-term goals, you know, to issue out uh guidance on what we will have brought together over the past two or three years. Uh a Tappy Tip, for example, and so on. And so this came out, and we said this is a great first step uh is to take what we have now and uh funnel it into a course. We quickly formed uh a subcommittee to uh put this course together, uh, composed of Bud and I and uh a few others that were very interested and motivated. And we started out, um so of course the the the development was what what should we include, what should we not, what would be appropriate, and so on.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

And you don't want to scare them away, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

But you have to arm them with really actionable knowledge, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Yes, and and it we we knew that there would be a uh a wide audience because it could go from the young engineer who is just starting out, and uh you know, she might want uh information and background all the way to uh an experienced person uh who might want uh the finer details, or so we tried to cover the spectrum, and we believe uh after much discussion and debate and so on, and we got a lot of help from the Tappy Safe team, how to uh put that together. And we're very happy to say that the course came out and has been available from the last uh, I think it's been a month or two now, and there's been uh almost uh 40 or so people that have taken it so far. And we're very happy about that because this is the first concrete piece of work or product that is coming out of the Dust Mitigation Committee. So it's been a nice uh accomplishment. It's been uh it's been fun to to work on it and to see something uh uh being put out there.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, and and to know that your work on the committee is going to have this impact on the industry, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Right. I think one of the one of the foundational questions that we were wrestling with is how much dust is too much? Because, you know, if you just have a trace of dust, that's not a problem. It would make a trace of a fire and and there would be no issue, even if it did ignite. But if you have enough fuel, then it becomes a problem. So we were wrestling with that question, how much dust is too much dust? And we had incredible input from lots of people, including an ex-OCHA person and various people uh from uh the mills themselves, with how they work their housekeeping schedule and frequency and all this sort of thing. And eventually we settled on a quantity of dust that is a good benchmark. Oh, is it a perfect number? No, but it's something. And I think the industry really didn't have that before. So that's that's that's one of the things that's in this course. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

That's a great idea. I mean, you know, engineers always say you can't improve what you can't measure. So having that benchmark at least gives you a sort of a rallying point, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Yeah, and that's really the measurement of sort of snow on the ground or dust on the ground, like it's it's a thickness of dust that is is a point where you should be worried about it. Um, and then there's a whole nother category of measuring dust, and that is the rate that dust is being produced. So you have a quantity of dust that's laying on the various surfaces, but then you also have a rate of dust. I mean, that that quantity of dust that you're looking at, it could have taken a year for that dust to build up or it could have taken an hour. Um if it takes an hour, obviously you're making a whole lot more dust. So we are really struggling with a good way to measure the rate of dust creation. That's a very, very difficult thing to measure. Uh, but hopefully we can make some advances in that issue because if we can, then all of a sudden you can start running experiments on the wet end and you can try different fiber types, you can try different levels of refining, you could try enzymes, you could try strength additives, you could try all sorts of different things in the wet end. If you could measure the rate of dust being produced at the reel, then you could say, okay, this recipe is better. It still makes a great product. Consumers are going to love it. Um, but you can do it while making less dust. So that that that's sort of a a next target for us.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah, I love that though, that you have this target that you're working towards. And um, you know, before the committee was formed, even if an individual mill had that target, I think trying to come up with that that test or that, you know, those levels, it's you know, hiding your light under a basket. It's too uh too unconnected from the industry. And it, you know, working on the committee this way helps that knowledge disseminate into the industry in in an actionable way.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

There's there's even one member of the committee that's uh the leader of his own company that has received some patents in this area about a device that could be potentially installed in mills that would measure the rate of inflation. So that's a really, really new idea. And hopefully things like that are going to continue to come into our industry and and help us advance this whole issue.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Is that exciting?

SPEAKER_03 34:03

And if I may, I think that's really the the the heart of it right there. What uh Bud's uh working group is uh focusing on the source of the dust, because that's where it all starts. If we can capture it there, then we can there's less stress later on in the other areas of trying to capture that fugitive dust in the machine, or if it escapes from the machine, it goes in the machine room, and how to go capture that because every time it grows in volume. Well, now there's bigger, more important solutions that have to be put in place because now we have to cap that dust is spread out into a larger volume of air. So now we need larger capture methods, larger uh capacities for uh fans and so on, and that's more costly uh to process all that. It's it's way more cost effective to try to capture it when it's small and right at the source.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

The methods that uh uh Bud is uh looking into with his group. Because once it gets under that machine room, it's it'll go up into the rafters and the beams, and then it becomes almost impossible to to go get that dust.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Uh it's harder and harder. So now there's you know solutions being thrown around like um, you know, drones that fly off.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

I've heard about this. Okay, Alfredo, you mentioned that you're gonna be at Tapicon. I don't know if you mentioned that on the pot or if if that was in our conversation before. One thing I learned about at Tapicon, I think last year, is that Velmet has actual drone technology, and that this was almost this use for the drones was almost discovered accidentally when we sent some of these monitored drones out of the air in a tissue mill, and someone noticed something.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yes, so that's fine. It's great that you brought that up because I uh that's exactly uh I forgot that's uh that story. The the the product manager who worked on this was relating it to me that uh, like you said, they were using drones to try to go see where are the problem areas, how do we get up there? Uh how can we help the uh the manufacturer to to reach those areas? And then they noticed something kind of strange. As they were flying around shooting video around there, the dust was kind of coming off those surfaces. And they said, Oh, it must be because of the the propellers off of the drones.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

And then they thought, well, wait a minute, there we go. Why don't we use that to go clean that surface? And then the uh and then the whole idea came out of, well, let's put a focused amount of uh air being uh ejected through a uh uh a focalized uh fan and and let that do the work. So yeah, it's fascinating how that came around.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

So you you basically turned it into a remote control flying fan. Yeah that then you can you can apply that fan to the tops of beams and the top of the machine. I I just found that fascinating. Yeah, such a spirit of of innovation, again, that comes from that collaboration of mills and suppliers working together and saying, hey, what if we did this?

SPEAKER_03 37:30

And and as you can imagine, it's also a lot of fun for the people operating it. So we there was a lot of traction there from uh male people saying, Hey, let me try it.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

We gotta get these young people interested in working in our industry and using drones. I mean, hey, right? It's just plain fun. Um and then to know that you're doing something that could prevent a problem later while you're flying this drone around. Um, I just think it's terrific what you guys are doing. And I I think, you know, if I mean you see you kind of got started during COVID. Well, yeah, that was great timing as far as everyone having a little extra time to get things off the ground. But if COVID taught us anything, man, bathroom tissue is always going to be in demand, right? And tissue is really one of our powerhouse sectors right now in our industry. There's so much potential for, you know, as less developed countries start raising their standard of hygiene and their standard of expectations for paper products and what they can do. Um, I think there's just so much happening in tissue right now. Faster machines, better quality, bigger machines, right? That use just massive amounts of different kinds of fiber. And so I think you guys are really, you know, I I almost said at a flashpoint, but I don't want to use that metaphor. Right. But you guys are really at a tipping point where the information that you guys are coming up with is going to be critical and frankly life-saving. Um, so thank you for what you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

There's just so much wonderful expertise in this industry that that has sort of migrated onto this committee.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

And um, you know, without everybody on that committee, this this wouldn't be going anywhere. And um there's definitely an eye-opening amount of expertise that is active in in this area. There's definitely sort of a a split on the members of the committee of people who can be more active at a particular point in time because you know it's all volunteer and and people blend this activity with what their whatever their job is that they're getting paid for. So people kind of come and go in in the active uh chairs. Um, but overall, there's really just a wonderful expertise pool out in the industry that that helps drive it.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

You know, I always think of it as someone who's been with Tappy for a long time, is that Tappy sort of gives you a way to turn your job into a career, right? To take the knowledge that you gain every day doing what you do, and use that knowledge to make connections with others, make changes in the industry that you care about and that affects you, um, and get that knowledge that's really siloed into individual people.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Out into uh a way where it can be actioned upon by by the whole industry.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

I couldn't agree more. That's you, I think you nail on the head there, and it's it's really the most gratifying part, I find, of volunteering for uh Tappy is because of that opportunity that it offers that it wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I mean, there's people from different areas and different uh companies that would otherwise not be talking. And every meeting starts with the guidelines of the cat and how to and you know not to uh uh divulge. I mean, we know that we even amongst the the manufacturers, there's trade secrets and so on, amongst the vendors and so on, and yet it all works because everyone's talking at the same uh uh uh uh professional level.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And now with the same attitude, right? Yeah, we are here to help everyone. So the rising tide that lifts all boats is another metaphor that I love when it comes to Tappy. And I'm I'm glad you mentioned that, Alfredo, because I I think that's something that people don't all uh another thing that people don't always know about committee work is that it always adheres to Tappy's very serious about its antitrust guidelines. All right. So, you know, all of our committee work is done uh under the aegis of that. Um so really it does create this safe space.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

It it does. Uh after I would say what's been maybe more than 15 years uh being involved uh with Tappy, it has always been a safe space. I've never seen any issue, or uh all I've seen is the opposite, is just the the the pleasure of working with others, as you mentioned. And you know, we think that okay, volunteering means oh, giving up your time. And yet I've learned after all these years that the return is bigger than the time that you've put in, uh, because of the gratification of learning from others, which might have been difficult otherwise, and vice versa, it's nice to also share one's knowledge because it's part of the whole thing, and that's why we do what we do. We like to be uh uh we we like to help and and to and to provide that information.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Oh gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

One of the things that's uh sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_04 43:04

No, go ahead. One of the things that I think Alfredo's done masterfully is he's uh as as a part of the dust mitigation meetings that are held, there's sort of a tech talk. There's there's one each meeting, and and there's been a quite a calendar of tech talks from the very beginning. Um, I've given a tech talk and lots of other people have given tech talks and they're scheduled out into the future, more tech talks. So just attending a committee meeting, you get to hear that tech talk. So even if you just wanted to stick a toe in the water and you know try the committee, it's it's worthwhile doing that. It's just listen to the tech talks. There's some really, really good ones.

unknown 43:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

So even though you guys grew so fast, you'd still welcome new members to the dust mitigation committee?

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Yes, absolutely. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Absolutely. Because we're we're finding out that it's the more the merrier, the more folks that join and from different backgrounds and different uh levels of expertise and and knowledge, the more. Uh we all benefit from it. And uh it makes it very interesting. And like Bud said, because of that, the the the the range of tech talks has been uh way uh we're now booking way into uh we're into next year. So it's a lot of fun. It's a one-hour uh meeting every two months, and within that one hour, once we get through the all the business items, uh there's about uh that tech talk is about 15 minutes, so they're short and sweet and focused and uh so it's a good use of time. And then there's always the discussion period afterwards, as you can imagine, everybody jumping in and and and asking and questions and so on. So it makes it a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Well, I'm gonna put an info link on our landing page so folks can, you know, folks listening to the podcast, go click that link and you can learn more about the tissue mitigation committee and you can learn more about other committees that Tappy has. There's so many scores of committees where you can really find your niche. Um, we're getting close to the end of our time. Guys, I've really I've learned a lot from you guys, and um, I've enjoyed speaking with you, but before I let you go, I have kind of one question for our listeners. Um what is the top thing that you'd both like to see every tissue mill do to avoid the complications from dust? And bud, let's start with you. What's the top thing you wish every tissue mill was doing right now?

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Yeah, that's I think that's a really great question. And and I think the main answer is, at least from my standpoint, is awareness of managing the problem. And it gets back to that same fork in the world, either make less dust or deal with the dust you have. Um and the guidelines of you know how much dust is too much and and how to approach the problem. There's oodles and oodles of uh facets to the solution here, but but just an a fundamental awareness that the issue can be managed is probably the single biggest thing that that mills can do right now. And it's not just a necessary evil. They can look at it and say, okay, we are making dust. Yes, there's dust here. Let's manage it, and then really start to dig into it. And then then it's it gets complex after that.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

But yeah, it's uh you you just have to start. And if I could tag on to that, in my case, I would say that um as as bud says, I I think the uh the first thing that would be very beneficial is to do dust testing, and that's how we get that information. Um with that, then we enter the bigger discussion of how to analyze that. And that's where it gets complicated really fast, uh as Bud mentioned, because we've learned that there are over two dozen uh metrics that can be applied, and depending on how they're applied, it can go in many different directions and it can be very overwhelming uh for someone uh that is looking at that. So the good news is that the next step would be to conduct a DHA, a dust hazard analysis. And luckily, there are consultants out there who conduct these DHAs and they are on the committee and they're helping us uh understand this and all the complexities of it. And the good news is that by conducting the DHA, they there's expert advice on how to manage through all that, what is most pertinent for that particular mill and process, and um and come up with the appropriate recommendations to put in place. So, yes, it's complicated, but yes, there's also a way to manage it effectively uh through the DHA. So I I was happy that that was one of the conclusions after uh much consultation with uh with everyone uh in the committee.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

So just to build on one of Alfredo's points about measuring the dust, you know, it's the it's how much dust is laying on the floor or beams or whatever, it's the rate of dust being produced. And then there's one thing we haven't talked about at all, and that's what the what is the makeup of the dust, right? Because the uh type of dust you have, if you're running a a sheet that's nearly or very heavy in eucalyptus fiber, is going to be a different kind of dust than a sheet being made with a totally different furniture. So understanding the composition or the makeup of the dust is also something that's that is key and and uh to date. I don't think the industry has put a lot of effort on that.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

So not all dust is created equal.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

But what I'm hearing from you guys is it's important A, to be aware that this is a problem, B, to know that there are ways to manage it, and C to start by doing an analysis and finding out exactly what's going on in your individual mill so that as complications arise, you know exactly how to approach it, and not just to accept that this is a necessary evil, but that it can be managed and that there are things you can do.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yes, well said, agreed. Very well said, yeah, very well said.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Oh, well said by me, but only because I just talked with you guys and you taught me these issues. You know, I really appreciate it. Alfredo Sarley and Bud Chase. Thank you both for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed speaking with you today. Thank you for all you're doing with the Dust Mitigation Committee.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

It's been a pleasure, and thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

Yes, and we look forward to seeing you at TappyCon shortly.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Oh, and I think you're not just talking to me. You are talking to every listener out there, right? I hope they all come to TappyCon. It's gonna be I've seen a little behind the curtain, you know, working with Tappy, uh, uh, how the program's shaping up and how the event's shaping up. It's gonna be fantastic this year.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

And if I may point the committee, yeah, real, real quick. Uh, there you will be a tissue. Sorry, the Yankee Dryer Safety and Reliability Committee is welcoming everyone in room 15 of the Huntington Convention Center in Cleveland at 2 p.m. on the Wednesday. And that would enable us to meet uh in person, whether on the Yankee Jar Safety Committee or on the Dust Commit uh mitigation committee. And if there are any new members or anyone interested to join, that would be a perfect place to come and meet us in person.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Oh my gosh, Alfredo, I am so glad you mentioned that. That is something that a lot of people don't know about TapyCon, is that there are a lot of committee meetings going on that welcome new members. You don't have to, you know, necessarily sign up ahead of time. You just come to the meeting, hear what they're doing, hear what it's about. It's a great way to sort of, like Bud said earlier, stick your toe in the water and see what's feels right for you in your career. Um, I'm really glad you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Well, it's another nice uh example of the networking possibilities that uh Tappy uh creates and these kinds of uh events.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Oh my gosh. I love ending on a positive note, you guys. You've been so much fun to talk to. Thank you so much for being here. And like Alfredo said, see you at TappyCon.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Very good. Thank you. Uh bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

I learned so much chatting today with Alfredo and Bud, not only about how dust fires happen, but what tissue makers and suppliers can do together to manage the problem. For me, that's today's most important takeaway. We don't need to simply accept the challenges of yesterday. Together, we can discuss solutions, raise awareness, leverage technology in diverse perspectives, and make impactful changes. Thanks to Bud Chase and Alfredo Sarley for speaking with me on the podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and share Better Together. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Hello, everyone. This is Larry Montague, president and CEO of Tappy, the pulp, paper, packaging, tissue, and converter industry's go to resource for news, industry trends, and technical and management information. We hope you enjoy today's Better Together podcast. And remember, there are two types of people in our industry Tappy members and those who should be. Have a great day.