Better Together: Women in Industry Panel Discussion

WIN Division Panel Discusses Leadership Models in the Pulp, Paper, Packaging & Tissue Industries. In this special episode of Better Together, host Jan Bottiglieri is joined by three guests from TAPPI's Women in Industry Division. This dynamic group provides programming, events, and networking opportunities for women and men throughout the industry, with a focus on personal growth and career development

For this Episode, our panel includes

·       Amanda Kernan of Valmet, who is our WIN Program Chair and a WIN Division Vice Chair;

·      Gabriele Pinckney, a WIN Division member and DEI senior manager for Solenis LLC; and

·      Deanna Duram, managing consultant with Trinity Consultants and the WIN Division's 2022 Woman of the Year.

The WIN Division is gearing up for its 2024 International Women’s Day Panel, held via Zoom on Friday, March 8, from 9:30 to 10:30 am EST. Moderated by Gabriele Pinckney, the panel will focus on Navigating Gender Equality in Industry, and will share real examples on how to implement successful inclusion strategies in your everyday life. Register here for this free event. Though only one hour out of your day, this discussion will make a lasting impact. Please join us and help #InspireInclusion!

If you have missed the Women's Day Panel—or if you're simply interested in supporting leadership opportunities and career growth for women in pulp, paper, and packaging—the WIN Division invites you to its 2024 Women's Summit in Cleveland, OH, on Saturday, April 27. Held in conjunction with TAPPICon, this year's Summit will include a keynote presentation from Cyd Rechtin, Founder and CEO of The Creator’s Attaché (TCA). Learn more here.

THANK YOU for listening to Better Together: Conversations with Innovative Leaders; don't forget to follow and subscribe to our podcast wherever you get your podcast content. Remember that, as the pulp, paper, and packaging industries face a future full of possibility, we really are Better Together.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to a special episode of Better Together. I'm your host, Paper 360 Editorial Director Jan Bodellari. Today I'm joined by three guests from TAPI's Women in Industry Division. This dynamic group provides programming, events, and networking opportunities for women and men throughout the industry with a focus on personal growth and career development. I've been to several events and sessions hosted by the Women in Industry or WIN division, and I always come away energized and excited about opportunities for women to grow in pulp, paper, and packaging careers. Today's panel includes Amanda Kernan of Velmet, who is our WIN program chair and a vice chair of the division. Gabby Pinckney, a Wynn Division member and diversity, equity and inclusion senior manager for Selenists, and Deanna Durham, a managing consultant for Trinity Consultants and the Wynn Division's 2022 Woman of the Year. The Wynn Division is gearing up for its 2024 International Women's Day Panel, which will be held via Zoom on Friday, March 8th, and which Gabby will be moderating. If you haven't yet, please register for that free event at Tappy.org. Just search the hashtag InspireInclusion. Well, thanks for joining us. Now let's get started with our amazing panel. Welcome to this episode of Better Together. I am so excited to talk to three women today I have on a panel. We're sort of leading up to our women in industry division events at Tapicon, and we're going to have a really interesting discussion today, I have a feeling. So I'll ask my three panelists to introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Sure. Thank you, Jan. My name is Amanda Kernan. I am a senior manager of marketing and communications at Valmet. We are a leading supplier to the pulp and paper industry. And I'm really excited for today's discussion because I've been in the pulp and paper industry for around six years now. And I do think it's really important that we discuss, you know, the topics around gender equality in our industry. And I'm looking forward to today's conversation about that.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

Well, great to have you here, Amanda and Gabby. Perfect. Hi, I'm Gabby Binckney. I am Salinas' global diversity, equity, and inclusion senior manager. Although I'm in HR now, I started my career in the commercial sales industry and doing tissue and towel for about 10 years. So I'm excited to be talking with my panelists today about more about just my experience as well as some of the gaps I see when we talk about women in the industry. Thanks so much for being here, Gabby.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

And welcome, Deanna. Thank you, Jan. My name's Deanna Durm. I am a principal consultant with Trinity Consultants, which is an environmental consulting firm. I have been serving uh clients in the pulp, paper, and tissue industry for 26 years now. And I am Trinity subject matter expert in that sector. And I also have the honor of leading Trinity's women in leadership initiative since 2019. And so I'm very excited to be able to speak to concerns and topics that we've tried to address within our organization.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Fantastic. Well, I can see this as a group of leaders with a lot of experience. And I'll just throw in that I've been writing about the pulp and paper industry for probably about 97, about 30 years now. And I've seen so many changes in the role of women. I mean, back from when I'd go to uh a conference and sometimes be the only woman in the room. But you'd think by now, uh, as I've seen so many changes and so much more the presence of women in our industry, you'd think, oh, well, we're done, right? We're we're this is a conversation that's been that's been had. But when Tappy's Women in Industry Division was formed, it became such a lively and active point of engagement, right? So why do you think there's still so much interest among women in our industry for this kind of networking where we've already come so far?

SPEAKER_03 4:43

I'll I'll start similar to what you said is you know, 25 years ago, right? Nothing like this existed. And when I'd go into meetings, I was often not only the only woman in the room, but at that time it was a bit younger. And so I was also the young face in the room. And um, you know, fast forward today, I want to make that path easier for others, those coming behind me, right? Lift up. Uh, and so for me, that's part of the reason I've been passionate about this is recognizing that it shouldn't have to be as hard as maybe some of the things I and others in my generation faced. Even though, let's be honest, there were others that came before me that faced far worse.

SPEAKER_04 5:31

I mean, it's a nice segue to hear Dana talk a lot about needing kind of mentors in the industry as you're starting out. And I think women in industry has been such a good program through Tappy for those that are starting out in the pulp and paper industry, and they need kind of that mentor um allied system, kind of the safe point and just an open, safe environment to talk about any issues or concerns and to share stories. That's something that I've really found valuable with the women in industry division, is just that outlet to share stories and experiences and then form those mentor-mentee relationships, not only within your company per se, with your manager or team of leadership, but also with uh fellow women leaders throughout the industry and to just have some different experiences that we can share with each other. So I just really like to tout that kind of safe, all inclusive environment that uh Wynn has provided a lot of us in the pulp and paper industry.

SPEAKER_05 6:38

Yeah, I agree. And I I just also think it's a changing climate, right? Like the engagement piece, I think is the important part there is that maybe even when I started, you know, we weren't necessarily as vocal or we weren't as demanding that we have this space to be treated, not keep in equality, but equitable, right? And and kind of make up for that ground that was lost. And so I think it's it's even being demanded here that we have a space for women to try to progress. Um, and women have seen wins as a way to do that, um, to network, to share in an open space, um, while also, you know, kind of learning the skills they need to move up, get to that next level of the organization and really be a part and impact the change that they want to see.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah, I think that's a terrific point. Um, but let me address a quick, I wouldn't call it an elephant in the room exactly, but something I just want to address for our listeners at the outset. We're four women, we're talking about a space, a safe space, we're talking about helping each other through the industry. What about men who are interested in win division programming? How do you feel about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Yeah, I would say that win is really all-inclusive to both men and women. And uh, I was recently listening to an interview with the authors of a book. I'm not sure if you've heard of it, Jan and Team, but it's called Good Guys, How Men Can Be Better Allies for Women in the Workplace. And this really touched on so many things uh just related to how men can support us as well in the workplace and at these different events at the Women's Summit and at TapyCon. Um, really, like I said, it's it's all inclusive, and there are leadership tips that we talk about at these events for everyone. Uh, but I wanted to call out something that they mentioned in this interview, and it was around the fact that men often feel like they need to kind of come in and rescue us. And they talked about this kind of white knighting concept. So I found this to be really interesting because while we absolutely want their support and these events are all inclusive, I think that it's important to note that, at least my opinion would be we could gain a lot of value from them if they came and, you know, listened to our discussions and educated themselves on kind of the different issues that we face as women in our industry, um, versus coming in and thinking they need to kind of rescue us and have all of these actionable steps in place up front. It's really about listening and again, educating themselves on what those different types of issues are that we face. And then through there, they can form their own kind of thoughts on how they can be better allies to women in the workplace. So, you know, that would be my advice for men that are interested in attending the summit. Not only do you gain some leadership tips that are all inclusive, but also you can get a better understanding of the different challenges that we face.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Oh, I absolutely love that, Amanda. Especially since I think in this conversation, we'll end up talking a lot about those sort of societal roles, right? That we're all just used to responding to instead of thinking about what's really needed here.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Yeah, and I'll I'll just add that um it's along the allyship theme, but what what I saw when our company first did some unconscious bias training, I received a lot of commentary from from men that took that training, kind of going, you've really opened my eyes, right? It's like I had no idea. I truly had no idea. And to hear some of these stories has given me a perspective, you know, it's like taking blinders off. And so by by that education, listening to those stories, uh, you can can see perspectives you didn't see before. And then to your point of, you know, it's a balancing act on that white knight aspect of things is there are ways that allies can help out from like recognizing that a woman is being spoken over during uh you know a group meeting, and then going back and saying, I think you were were trying to say something. Can you go ahead and offer your input, right? Like simple acts like that. Um, that's not white knighting, that's being an ally. And that's really important to help make a difference.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

And sometimes it's not even being a good ally, it's being a good team member, right? I mean, you should want to hear everyone's perspective, not just to highlight the women in the room, you know, like you should want to hear everybody's perspectives. If someone makes a valid comment, you should want them to expand more on that. So I think it's important that people obviously, yes, if if you see that happening, that you speak up for it, but just be considerate in a lot of uh conversations and interactions, and and I feel like we could get there.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

I love that idea because um allyship is not something that women just need from men, right? It's something that new hires need from older hires, it's something that team members need from their leaders, right? So it's not this new role we've created for men to play in our careers. It's it's a leadership aspect that applies here as it applies in other areas, right? Just everyone should be heard. Um, everyone should get the chance, everyone should be encouraged.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

Right. But also knowing that there is that gap there is the important part, right? So you know there's a gap. You hear this woman or person of color or whoever on your team that's always being talked over or not listening to their ideas, then as an ally, it is your job to step up and say, you know, hey, Cabby, can you repeat that again? I you were saying something really, you know, constructive there that I think the whole team should hear. Um, or, you know, uh leading the meeting in a in a different way. So there's a lot of different ways that people can actually show up as those active allies instead of just saying, hey, I'm an ally, I got all this education, you know, what can I do next? Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

And there's two things I think that some people uh consider allyship that maybe, again to Deanna's point about blinders, there's I'm an ally, I'm not going to do anything to stop you, right? That's not being an ally. That's that's just that's table stakes right there. Or allyship's an action. Yes, I love that. Or there's being an ally by saying, Oh, Gabby, yeah. I think what you meant was and then becoming that voice. That's that's not allyship either. I think that's that's sort of that white knight. And that the line can be a little a little thin, and you know, kind of depends sometimes also on perspectives. So I think Amanda's point about listening is really important here as well.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Absolutely. And I think there's also some questions that, you know, I've heard and we all have heard in the past, maybe with events that are particular to women, it's, you know, well, why don't we have events that are particular to men like this? Or I think it, you know, it goes back to again the listening and better educating, you know, these are kind of the statistics and the numbers, and these are the gaps uh between, you know, better pay and things along those lines. So just to Deanna's point, you know, having those conversations where sometimes they're like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. So listening and hearing those stories and better educating, I think is is really important and something that we try to focus on with these events and just the women in industry division altogether.

SPEAKER_05 15:03

Yeah, and coming off of something you just said to Amanda is about the, you know, I just didn't know, I just didn't know. It reminds me about um Maya Angelo quote again, just kind of summing up what she said, you know, do the best you can do until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. Um, and so I think, you know, we need to allow these people to that education, that opportunity to learn and grow, right? Give giving them grace, like, hey, you're doing the we're going to assume you're doing the best that you can do, right? But then when you receive that education and you do know better, then that expectation there is for that action for you to actually do better. Um and know that you'll even mess up in some situations, but that still shouldn't stop you from wanting to do better and wanting to engage and wanting to sponsor and do all that you can to help progress towards a better workplace.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Absolutely. And I think these are skills that so many of us do have, right? Know better, do better. Um uh, you know, act on what we have learned. We just don't always apply those skills in the human resources area to the inequities that we may or may not notice there. So um something I had um sort of thrown out there ahead of our conversation was this idea about the dilemma between competency and likability. Okay, where um sometimes people, uh people of color, women, um people whose generation are you know, that sometimes it's generational between, you know, generation Y and and you know, baby boom leaders and stuff. This idea that for some people competency and likability are at odds. And for other people, that's not always the case. And by other people, I mean people whose presence has been in our industry a lot longer. Um, you know, there are certain traits associated with leadership that are often more societally associated with men, certain traits associated with likability that are assigned to women as sort of their job. Be agreeable, be kind, be supportive. And those are not always the same traits we're looking for in leaders, and that causes a challenge for women.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

What do you guys think? This question reminded me of a book that I read and I love it. It's called Um Breaking Through Bias, Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work. Um, the authors are Andrea Kramer and Alton Harris. There's so many reasons I like this book because it it it's a flat out certain things in our present society just suck and culture just suck, right? And we recognize, many of us recognize it may not be fair, but we're not gonna immediately change the culture. We each individually have actions that we can control to help change things. So that's it gives a lot of practical advice with that idea in mind. So that's one of the reasons I like it. And they address this through the term the Goldilocks dilemma. And I love that. It's um how to balance being seen as powerful, competent, self-confident, and likable. Because the reality is, even though we shouldn't necessarily have to be viewed as likable to be a leader culturally right now, that's kind of this weird norm.

unknown 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

And so what I right, and so what I liked about this book is it says, I'm not saying it's right, but it's the reality. And so here are some ideas of, and it a big focus is on like nonverbal communication. And some some of your nonverbal communication can be negative or positive. And how can you tweak that a little bit to walk that Goldilocks dilemma as a woman leader? So I would certainly encourage, like, I could spend a whole hour talking about that one, right? So go get it, you'll love it.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. That's a lot to balance on one plate, you know. Imagine coming from a buffet, you know, and you've got a little of everything on your plate. That's a lot to balance.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

But like, like just an example would be things like your body posture, right? Like you can control your body posture. So do you do you cave in on yourself or do you take up your space? How do you set your arms? Are they cross-defensively uncertainly? Or, you know, do you lean in in a conversation? It's these little tweaks that you can make that can help with this dilemma. Now, that doesn't that, you know, again, that goes back to that's an action I can take. It doesn't necessarily address the there's still the ongoing education aspect that we've talked about to have to have men and others in positions of leadership recognize that they have these biases and are applying this. So that comes back to when win summit and some of the topics we try to go through to help educate so that people can see how they might be interpreting behavior and try to adjust accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, I love that, Deanna. We have to keep our radar up like that. I mean, imagine, Gabby, has has that been your experiences that women are asked to balance a lot of different factors like that?

SPEAKER_05 21:06

Oh, for sure. Yes. Yeah, that's definitely been in my my experience in industry. Um, as well as, I mean, just kind of pulling back on those biases, right? It's expected. If I'm in a meeting, I'm taking notes, right? Because of course Gabby's taking the notes. And then it's when when asked, it's oh, because you you take the best notes. And it's like, is that really why you asked me in the first place, though, to take notes? Um, but sometimes it's even challenging that, right? And and challenging what people are throwing at you. You know, if if I'm going into a meeting as you know, a senior sales account manager and I've got my tech with me, maybe it's being like, oh, that's great. We would love to take notes. You know, Scott, would you mind uh, you know, taking notes on this meeting so that I can uh walk us through the slides and uh material that I'd like to present today? So I think it's important that you know you acknowledge those instances, redirect when you can. But still have that air of confidence about you. And I like what Deanna was saying. Like you can make those small adjustments, but realize that they're just little adjustments. They shouldn't impact or change you as a person. You're adapting in a particular environment. So I think that's important to have that adaption, but realize that you still need to be yourself. You're still allowed to be yourself. And that we need to get the allies in the room with us the space and the voice to make it so that we can be ourselves and be addressed accordingly.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

And I I'm gonna I'm gonna say I recently had a situation where group group of men and me, and I was asked to be the note taker. And I I was like, you know, I don't think so. I think someone else could probably do that. I got a few other things going on here. It was so uncomfortable. Even after, you know, 26 years doing this, it was a really uncomfortable thing to do. But I was like, it was an opportunity to kind of make a point gently, but it was important.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Absolutely important. It is important just to challenge again those sort of societal norms that the reason they are norms is because they are not challenged. It's not the, you know, the reason they're not challenged is because they're the norms. No, it I think sometimes our acceptance drives that that sort of that culture of what's normal and what's not normal in a way that's not healthy, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:41

I absolutely agree. And I agree with what Deanna and Gabby were mentioning too, about you know, having that confidence and also standing up for yourself when it comes to those situations, like being called out as the note taker, um, you know, from the perspective of addressing it with colleagues. But I also wanted to mention something I noticed, at least when it comes to this likability versus competency concept. Um, also we have to hold ourselves accountable as leaders too. And I I have one minor example, but I've noticed it and maybe others have. But when you're drafting an email, this likability concept comes into play where I question, you know, have I included enough smiley faces or exclamation points? And, you know, I think it's also really important for us to hold ourselves accountable, you know, like don't overthink those situations. Um, you know, as a as a leader, you don't need to add like two exclamation points at the end of something because you'd rather be liked versus you're competent on a subject that you're emailing someone about and you're a stern and what you're saying, and you know, you're assigning something. Or, you know, I think we just need to be also more aware of ourselves and how sometimes we might get caught up in some of those kind of wanting to be more likable in certain situations. Um, so I've I thought that was a good kind of thing to address in addition to like externally with colleagues, like internally within ourselves, how we're communicating.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

I absolutely agree. And I've taken now, we put in those extra extra exclamation marks, so we sound bubbly, right? Like, oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And then I will go back to my email before sending and take out some of those qualifiers, take out some of those exclamation marks, because I have to remind myself you don't have to sound obsequious, even as a woman, in order to expect to get what you're asking for. Do you know? I think that's that is a societal norm sometimes that I unfairly place on myself, that I shouldn't expect to be treated well unless I follow those norms. And I have to constantly challenge that in myself.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

But this also goes back to authenticity because I also, you know, yes, I am I am the project manager, I am the boss, I set the expectations. Um, but you know what? It is me, it is me to be like, thank you for hitting the mark, right? I appreciate your effort because I know how important that feedback is. So there's a balancing egg because when you when you hear about the competency likability, sometimes you almost feel like, wait, I should I not give this praise and support? But I'm like, that's how we lift. Like that's how we build confidence in others. I think it's more about I have to be comfortable when the the mark hasn't been hit saying this didn't meet my expectations and not necessarily soften it too much.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, well, that's where, you know, that's where that idea of Goldilocks comes in. Is it a little too hot? Is it a little too cold? I have to always find that just right. And it's something I think we all deal with. Let me throw this out to you. Do you think it's fair that that burden is always on us as women to find the just right?

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Well, I think that's why I like the breaking through bias book I mentioned, because it uh it it states it no, it's not fair. If we want to move the needle in society, this is what we we're dealing with. And so we we have to walk that line, but then educate, reinforce if we're gonna see that change. And so it comes back to one of my one of my my the things I tell myself is I just have to be the change I want to see. I can't just say this is unfair, make a difference, right? Like like I have to be willing to put the work in, whether it's fair or not.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Yeah, I mean, and if if you don't take up the the you know chalice and go yourself, who else will, right? So I think that's really important that you have to take it upon yourself to be a part of the change, or it's not gonna happen. If if we left it up, the men who we were working with, it it just it wouldn't progress and it wouldn't progress in the way that it needs to. You really need the people who are impacted by it the most leading that change and in what comes next. So I think that what you were talking about, Deanna, is just a crucial part to be the impact, you have to lead the change. And it's not fair. Sorry, I wanted to make sure that was there. It's definitely not fair. Um, but it's just it's just part of really creating that impact that you have to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Well, I love that though. Um, and again, that's where allyship comes in to sort of walk that line with us and maybe widen it a little. So, you know, every few steps forward, that range of just right becomes a little wider and allows more and more, not just women, but all people to be a little more authentically themselves and have that be just right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

And it's it's those, you know, water cooler conversations and and all of those things that that really impact it. Like you said, allyship is so important to everything that we're trying to do. It's having those conversations and being like, uh, did you read Abby's email? She was so aggressive. And it's like, uh, you know, coming from one of our male colleagues. No, I thought she was assertive and and got her point across very well. I could see where we have caps and can um have the opportunity for growth. You know, it's small little comments like that that make people think like, oh wow. Um, and then that changes their perception of that person, which then has a rippling and a cascading effect. So allyship is just in all this conversation, I'm sure, throughout the rest of the time that we have today, allyship will keep coming up in opportunities here, um, with uh obviously us driving the change, but those allies are crucial to actually having that impact and being for us being heard.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Absolutely. I think there are some of these societal norms that are associated with leadership that actually can be positive for women in the works in the workplace trying to use their best talents, trying to use all of their natural abilities, not just the ones that society has assigned us, but the natural abilities that we may have as people. Um, where are where are some places that you guys have seen um where being a woman and having that perspective has helped you in your career?

SPEAKER_05 31:16

Well, there's a lot of silence that bothers me. Yeah, I know, right? It's like thinking through every interaction you've had with someone. But I mean, I guess maybe this is just popping into my head because we were talking about being the secretary earlier. But, you know, being organized and and having wealth out thought out plans that are prioritizing each step, I think has helped me as a leader because people see me as hey, Gabby's gonna take the charge. She's gonna tell us exactly what action needs to be laid out next. Um, and this is what we've really got to do to go execute it. So let's work together and let's go execute. Um, so I think that's one of the standards, like of course, Gabby's good at taking notes, she's good at organizing, like she's a woman, she'll keep everything straight, right? She'll keep everybody in line. Um, but that has helped me in some leadership positions because yes, I do keep everyone in line and I do make sure that we get to our end goal. Um, and so I think that is sometimes is it's in our scene as you know, having organizational skills and being able to prioritize. And that does reflect some of the leadership competencies or skills that I think people um admire.

unknown 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Yeah. And to and to add to that, uh, just one, you know, thing that I've noticed in my role is as a woman, we're seen as kind of naturally empathetic, we're nurturing. And I've noticed that you know, empathy is really a big key factor in being a leader. And recently I've had uh annual reviews with my team, and all of them have mentioned that they really appreciate that I'm understanding and empathetic to different situations that they're going through, not only from a you know a professional workload perspective, but that balancing act of professional and personal. And, you know, again, being empathetic to some of those situations. So I think naturally people look to women again as being more empathetic, and more and more empathy is such a strong leadership role. Um, so I think that's something that we can take as women leaders and celebrate and you know have more conversations around. So that would be in addition to Gabby's kind of like organized, you know, empathy is something that I've noticed that is a is a common treat.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Absolutely. My hope there is that the success of empathy in a leadership position, it's not so much that men aren't empathetic. I think for many, many years that just wasn't valued as highly. So maybe men who also had that skill weren't encouraged to use it as much, right? So I think there is also a role for women leaders to inspire uh men to also embrace certain uh traits or um personal strengths that haven't always been embraced as much in the workforce. And now that helps them be more authentically themselves, working to their best strengths as well.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Now, Dean, I I certainly see in the business setting, um, you know, Gabby's comment on organization popped into my mind, and then Amanda's on empathy is what came into my mind too. And uh I think that, you know, as a consultant, all those skills are important to to success and in what I do. But I think that the and what I saw when I started and I've I've seen through my years and the conversations is kind of understanding that that empathy and relationship development, not only with my team members, but with my clients, right? Like with my client contacts and the people I'm talking to there, the small talk is important, right? Like understanding who my clients are, what makes them tick personally, as well as what makes their what's important to their company, those conversations are really important to developing a long-lasting relationship. And that's where I think women have naturally tended to recognize that more and have built on that strength. And I've seen the light bulb starting to click with more and more of the men around me that I work with of oh, yeah, that is kind of important. You know, I I should make some time to learn a little bit about and make a note and remember that when I go to talk to them in the future, it matters.

SPEAKER_04 35:57

It does. And I mean it helps with performance too. People want to feel heard and all around, it helps with that morale retention, and then you know, the performance levels of your employees too. So I think it's really, it's really something important to call out. And I read somewhere recently that the new term instead of chief executive officer, it should be chief epithy officer. And I thought, wow, you know, that's that hits the nail right there.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

So your staff and your team members, they don't leave their personal stuff at the door when they walk into the office. Like it that used to be the presumption that we almost like we're split personalities, right? The work personality and the at-home personality, and that's not the reality of people. And so when your people know that they can talk to you and say they're facing a challenge, and you you're gonna listen to them and then balance you know, those those personal and professional needs, that's huge.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

It is huge. And uh, you know, as I'm listening to this, I see so many ways where this conversation relates very specifically to the pulp, paper, tissue, and packaging industries, right? As our industries become more global, more competitive, um, as companies become larger, those smaller companies go away. Your pool of, as vendors, your pool of manufacturers shrinks. As manufacturers, your pool of vendors shrink. You can't afford to throw away those relationships, to ignore those personal relationships. And with the employment crisis that our industries face, you know, we can't afford to turn away younger future leaders who are looking for more of that balance in their lives, who don't want to, you know, slam the door of their home and leave everything at home behind as they pick up that briefcase to go into work, or as they pick up that tool belt and go into work. They want more uh more interaction between their home life and their work life. And I especially see that post-COVID, right? People are now very often working from home. It's really harder and harder to not blur those lines, right? And they want that kind of acceptance, empathy, understanding for both sides of their life.

SPEAKER_05 38:36

Well, I think it's crucial too for your mental health and well-being, right? If you're one person at home and have to play the role of someone completely opposite at work, it it's just not good for your mental health, it's not good for who you are. Um, and again, like we said, making small adjustments is completely different than having to change and be a completely different person at work. Um, so I think in order to maintain sanity, it it's important that you're able to bring your whole self to work and show that whole self and share that whole self with everyone.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Yeah, I completely agree. And who does it benefit if you can be your whole self, bring all of your talents, whether they are traditionally valued or not? A, the person, but also B, the company, I think. I mean, we can't afford to leave talent on the table no matter what it looks like, no matter who's bringing it. As an industry uh and as companies, I think we can't afford anymore to ask people to leave their talents behind just to fit some sort of a predetermined norm.

SPEAKER_05 39:46

I agree. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I mean, everyone, we're all we all work for companies. We're all in the business of growing, right? And making money. And how can you do that if your people aren't performing at their best, right? And if you aren't at your, if you aren't at your best, if you can't be your whole true self, then you're not contributing as much as you can. You're not as engaged, right? There, there's a lot of other things that that you're lacking, or not necessarily lacking, but that you can't bring to the table uh because you just don't have that support. So if we support people and allow them to bring them their whole selves to work, be inclusive, right? Of course, TEI. And we have that really uh that inclusion piece down, it allows people to then show up to work, be their best, which then contributes to innovation and hearing those different perspectives, which then grows the company, grows the business, adds to the bottom line.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Absolutely. That I-word, innovation, that is a magic word in our industry. Everybody wants to hear it. Definitely a buzzword there.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Um, but it's it's so true though. Um, and especially when we talk about bringing in diverse perspectives and ideas and backgrounds, we really do get a strong eye for innovation as well. And and it really does progress all of our organizations better. Of course, all the facts and figures are out there about how diversity adds to a team, but um, but I think it is crucial that if people aren't showing up to work as their best, then then we really can't have even innovation at a level that makes us really competitive.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

And I think this conversation around empathy really nicely ties in to win overall, just bringing it back to the you know, women in industry topic. It really provides, again, that space for us to all be empathetic with one one another and share our stories together. So I think just that's a natural tie-in to why women in industry has been such a success and people want to be more involved in the organization.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Absolutely. And I think that goes for all of Tappy divisions, right? We don't look at, for instance, the corrugated division and say, oh, I guess the corrugators need their own division. Well, aren't they special? And they would never turn away someone in um in say graphic papers who also has interest in how um coatings uh affect the printability of their substrate, right? So they would never turn someone away um just because they you know they come from a slight slightly different sector of the industry hoping to learn. And I think that's something to remember about all of our uh tapby divisions, but really the win division, I've seen this so much. It's a great place to practice being your authentic self, right? To practice uh being assertive without uh the fear of accusation of being aggressive, with being um loud at the table, um with when you're excited about an idea that you want to share without being accused of of being uh oh attention seeking. No, that's what everyone does when they're excited to share an idea, right? And also, you know, a great practice ground for allies who want to come and watch women being their authentic selves so they know it when they see it and can support it.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

I would say another big benefit of an event like the Wind Summit is learning you are not alone. As you sit and listen to stories, you're like, oh my gosh, I have felt that too. Wait, okay, wait, this is a thing, right? It's validation that something you have felt or you have experienced, um for better or worse, you're not the only one that has gone through that. And then learning what are some responses in those situations. Um that that I I've heard. That through our initiative and our company and trying to connect people across a wide geographic area is a challenge. We we are an organization, we don't have like one big office. We're spread across the country and in different uh different global locations. How do we make sure people are able to connect and talk and share these stories so they can find an empowerment and ideas on how to navigate situations that feel uncomfortable to them?

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Absolutely. Absolutely. Can you all share maybe some of your, I want to say triumph moments, right? I think in a forum like this, we tend to say, oh, let's all share that time where I went to a mill, true story, uh, asked to use the ladies' room, and the man told me, oh, we don't have a ladies' room. We don't get many women. So we share a lot of those stories. Um, can we share some stories here about the times we took our chance, right? And was met with acceptance. I'm hoping that, you know, now that we do see many more women present in our industry, we can start coming up with ways to um continue that progress. So, what are some stories where you've really where you've had that allyship? Where you've taken that brave step to be who you are and was met with um success instead of um confusion.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

Sure, I can start with that. So I would just say in my role, I currently work in marketing and communication. So, as part of that, there is an event planning element that goes into my daily responsibilities. And we have um a few trade shows, as you know, Jan in the pulp and paper industry. And um I was at one of our larger trade shows, and um actually leading up to that event, I was having planning discussions, and I was, you know, the only woman on some of these calls. And a male colleague had asked, you know, oh, are you going to be the booth babe at the event? So this gave me a very unique opportunity to, I mean, we were on a video call, so of course I my face was showing my you know disappointment in the comment. However, you know, I did take a step back. I addressed the comment and let them know that no, I would not be representing the company from that perspective, and that there are a lot of other elements that a marketing communication manager handles when it comes to planning and setting up these types of trade shows. So I took it as an opportunity to educate them again on all of the planning that goes into it. And then a really nice thing to see when it comes to talking about allies. Uh, I did have a few other male colleagues that jumped in and said, you know, she's been a great support with us when it comes to like setting up sales materials, putting together different marketing materials for the event. And it was nice to see that I did have those allies as well that address this person. But I would say that was um definitely a challenge for me, an example of something that does go on a lot. Um, yes, maybe not so much anymore, but it's really important to educate that, you know, again, there's a lot more that goes into our roles and responsibilities. And there are some of those bias against, you know, how women are represented in these certain events. So it was also really empowering to just, you know, stand up and address the issue, educate on all of the different areas of the trade show that I was supporting, and then also see some of that allyship from from other uh male colleagues. So yeah, I think education, what we talked about in the beginning, is key, and just standing up for yourself. And that was that was basically the the issue that I think is a good example of some of the bias that we receive.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

So terrific example. And that's also a terrific example of something that might have been met with, oh, we'll just take that compliment. And that's so, you know, that's so misguided. I'm glad you had allies standing up for your for your competencies. Absolutely. Any similar stories from Deanna or Gabby?

SPEAKER_05 48:49

I have similar ones, um, a lot of different um experiences here. I think since uh since Amanda K one where she real more so stubborn for herself, I'll I'll share just a brief story about, you know, just an interaction I had where, you know, it really took that ally to come to my support um and help. Um kind of similar lines, you know. I I walked into a meeting and was there with, you know, my team, and and we were about to deliver a presentation, and they were just like, um, they made a comment about, oh, so you brought the pretty lady with you this time. And I just was like, okay, great, like thanks, but I'm also like the one who put all this data together and analyzed everything, and awesome. But um, you know, I had both the technician and my manager in the room with me, and they were just like they kind of laughed it off, but let into yes, and she's gonna take you through um the solution she has prepared to you, you know, to give you based on all the information and data that she collected. So, Cavi, if you wouldn't mind getting us into the presentation today, um, so that we can take them through everything that's you know needed to execute. And I just was like, I appreciated that because it helped me then take back over like my air of confidence, my dominance, right? It's like I'm already standing up here at the front of the room, and then you talk about my appearance, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like wanting to crawl in a ball and just curl myself up because I just don't want confidence like compliments like that in a professional setting. Um, and it kind of just even though the compliment, even though the comment that my manager made still had him like, hey, you know, I'm leading this right now, I'm taking over and showing you that you need to give her more respect. But it allowed me to recenter myself so that then I could take over that control when he passed it back to me and still deliver my piece effectively. So again, it's a small example, but just little acts like that by allies where you every time don't have to show up and be like, can you not comment about my appearance before I give this presentation to you? And it is just it's it's helpful. It really, it really does progress us in in the right direction when we do have allies like that that help step up and and um allow us to then be our best selves and deliver the way that we prepared. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Deanna's thinking. It was so hard. I all the other things came to mind first, right? All the things and all the challenges and uh instances where you didn't necessarily like step up, but uh at least for me, that's like that's what came up. Um, so I feel like this is a little harder.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

It is, it is, and you know that what I've what I've experienced over, you know, quarter century, like there's been such a change. Um, in recent years, I think a lot of the things that I look at and I celebrate is where I continue to to do sort of the example from earlier where I like, no, I'm not gonna be the note taker. I think there's someone else that can be. But um there is a conversation that it kind of goes back to the Goldilocks thing. Um, we we were having a training session um in our office and with some other regional um individuals and leadership, and um a female consultant was expressing frustration about the fact that she can give advice to a client and they want the next person up who's a man to to chime in and they'll give the same advice and then it's taken, right? But it's not taken until it comes from from the male colleague. Mansplaining, yeah, mansplaining, yeah. And some of the individuals in the room are like, this is really a thing, and and I I chimed in, I'm like, this has been a thing since I started, and it's still a thing today. And I started to to kind of give an example, and one of the senior managers was like, Deanna, with your confidence level, I just have a hard time believing anyone doesn't. And I was like, Do you understand that I have to show 110 confidence in order to be taken at all seriously sometimes? I'm like, and he sat back and it was again the light bulb went off, and he's like, I never thought about it that way. And I'm like, because you're a male, you haven't had to. So instead, you think I'm overconfident, where that's where the space I have to be to be heard, and so what I've appreciated is, and and I see it as a success, is we're having these conversations, right? That the space was safe enough that this female consultant could express a concern, and we could have this dialogue with a senior male leader, and it made an impact. Yes, that's being the change you want to see.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Absolutely. And I mean, I think the the male coworker who said that to you, I can't believe that. I mean, wasn't aware of how that is exactly the problem. He can't believe it. Well, you just saw it. Yeah, you are hearing it from Deanna herself. The fact that your thought is, I can't believe it, is part of the problem. So again, when we can bring our authentic selves, that's the proof that we need. That is the change we want to be. That is the impetus for others to know better and do better. Um, and I've been there. I I I had an idea once that I really believed in for reformatting the organization of an entire volunteer group within Tappy. And I met with the group and stood because I needed that little boost of confidence of height, I was with a very distinguished, experienced, 100% male group of volunteers. And I stood at the end of the table and I said, here is my plan for reorganizing. And one of the most senior members of the group, an industry expert, a brilliant guy, stood up to meet my height, leaned forward towards me, looked me in the eye and said, Are you telling me X? And every instinct in my body said, sit down and let the man talk. But I stood and I looked at him and I confidently and kindly said yes. And he looked me in the eye and said, Okay, and sat back down, and it was the triumphant moment of my career. I love that because I it really took some effort to stand and respond that way, and to be met with that yes meant the world to me. And I will say my idea worked. I'm just gonna throw that part out there too. No, girl.

SPEAKER_05 56:33

I love it, but it just also shines a light on that inner dialogue that we have within ourselves, Amanda, that you were talking about. You know, it's just we are all in the space we're at because we achieve and because we're meant to be there. And in situations like that, you have to try to keep as much of that right in in the forefront of your mind as possible so that you can really stand up and assert yourself when it's challenged.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

And yeah, to your point, Amanda, about when it is a great place for women to come and feel that support, practice those behaviors and that confidence. Um, and also learn some great stuff that's really applicable to our careers.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Agreed. And we have, you know, just talking about those actionable items, you know, we have different uh roundtables and workshops planned for this summit coming up here in 2024. And um yeah, again, I think it's just really important to know that we come together to talk through different issues that we face, but we also provide tips on how to achieve kind of common obstacles. So it's not only educational, but you're also taking away different things that you can implement in your everyday life, even personally and professionally. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Okay, any last comments for the men and well, for the women and the men who are listening today, and trust me, there are tens of them listening right now. Um Diana smiling. I wish I could say there were thousands listening right now. Share this, uh share this podcast when you can. Any final comments to inspire, motivate, and and support those women.

SPEAKER_03 58:23

Growth happens when we push comfort zones.

SPEAKER_05 58:27

Love that, love that. And dialogue for me, it's always about dialogue. We have to have the conversations in order for there to be any change. So I know we also have to create the the right space to have the conversations, but really it's that dialogue, the the part that I always think about that really gets us to the next level and and can help impact change.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Absolutely. Well, I see you all at Women's Summit. Yes, yes, oh, the thumbs up I just got. I love it. Thank you all, Amanda, Deanna, and Gabby, for joining me today. This has been such a fun conversation. I just want to thank you all for being here and and supporting each other and supporting Better Together and supporting women in industry. Thank you so much, Dan. Thanks, Deanna.

SPEAKER_05 59:14

Thanks, Gabriel. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Wow. Our time together went so quickly. I feel there is always more to talk about with these inspiring women. We're going to keep the conversation going on Friday, March 8th at the 2024 International Women's Day Panel Discussion. It's an online event that will take place from 9.30 to 10.30 a.m. Eastern Time. The panel will discuss navigating gender equality in industry, and they'll share real examples of how to implement inclusion strategies in your everyday life. Everyone is welcome. Just search the hashtag inspireinclusion at tappy.org to register. You know, it's only an hour, but I guarantee that this discussion will make a lasting impact for you. Big thanks to today's Better Together panelists, Amanda Kernin of Valnet, Gabrielle Pinckney of Salinas LLC, and Deanna Durham of Trinity Consultants. Please subscribe to this podcast, Better Together. Conversations with innovative leaders. You'll find us anywhere you download podcast content. Thanks for listening. And remember that as the pulp, paper, and packaging industries face a future full of possibility, we really are better together.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Hello everyone. This is Larry Montague, president and CEO of Tappy. The pulp, paper, packaging, tissue, and converter industry's go to resource for news, industry trends, and technical and management information. We hope you enjoyed today's Better Together podcast. And remember, there are two types of people in our industry Tappy members and those who should be. Have a great day.